Better series lead. Ed Mercer from "Orville" vs Burnham from "Discovery?"

[BillJ]

Personally I don't think it's necessarily outlandish because these things are complicated. None of the black Orville characters are leads, and McFarlane made the helmsman a goof-off on purpose, who almost got killed because of it, so liking or 'liking' that character per se is not a sign of enlightenment when it comes to how one might view black characters.

He's also identified as a genius.

Who knows what goes on deep in any of our subconscious minds? Though I didn't have a problem with Avery Brooks (my youngest son is named Benjamin, and it ain't because of Franklin or Pearce) nor Kate Mulgrew as series leads, though the writing let them down from time to time.

 

[DarKush]

I agree with this but to me it is how do you want to approach the issue that some fans might be bigoted in their views. Do you want to be skeptical and assume that most or many dislike something is because of bigotry or try to be hopefull and take people at their words that if they say they aren't racist then they aren't racist. I prefer to reserve my cynicism towards humanity as a whole but stay optomisitc on a individual level. I don't like not trusting people and try to fight against that urge. Hell I don't even care if I end up being wrong sometimes which is why I will even defend people when it might look bad simply because I believe in the idea that all people have good and bad in them.

Jason

I can't speak for LJones. But how people approach it is up to them. I don't know LJones but I think they have every right to be skeptical.

I also think that when a person makes a charge of racism, once the reaction to deny it and denounce the accuser it passes, perhaps some people, if they feel the charge was directed at them, can take some time for self-examination, to look at their likes and dislikes, where they came from and why. You (not you personally but I'm speaking in general) might do that and see there's nothing to see there, and move on, or you might start realizing their are some trouble spots and seek to fix them, or not. And maybe the person making the charge isn't crazy or angry, but is seeing something there that is ugly that a lot of people don't want to see or admit to.

I don't believe every critic of Star Trek Discovery is racist, though I do think racism infects our thinking in ways that we don't even realize, it's just 'the way things are', it's not frothing at the mouth, it's just not cross-burning or tiki-torch bearing, it's more assumptions or blindness to things or a lack of empathy, etc.

 

[DarKush]

He's also identified as a genius.

Who knows what goes on deep in any of our subconscious minds? Though I didn't have a problem with Avery Brooks (my youngest son is named Benjamin, and it ain't because of Franklin or Pearce) nor Kate Mulgrew as series leads, though the writing let them down from time to time.

Yes, a genius who slacks off and would rather act immature than use his intellect for something great. He has to be pushed to do that. Sure there are people like that in 'real life' but remember this isn't real life, it's fiction. And when you look at the relatively small space for black characters in genre productions, it's important to look at what kind of image are you conveying by putting this jokester on the show and he is your identifiable human black male character? Since there are not many, the ones that are in these films/shows might take on an outsize importance due to them 'representing' their respective racial/ethnic group. (For me, as a black person, Uhura, Geordi, Sisko, Teal'c, Tyr from Andromeda, etc. meant something to me that maybe they wouldn't for a fan who wasn't black, and so it goes for Burnham and the Orville characters as well).

We might not know what's going on in our subconscious, though sometimes we can and I think should explore that. But what we might not see, others might be able to point out. Lamar being a 'genius' gets no points from me because he's largely been portrayed as an idiot. A good-natured idiot, a skillful pilot idiot, but an idiot all the same. If anything it's like McFarlane wanted to create a black male jokester character-wasn't sure how that would go over-and then tacked on, well, he's really a genius you see, to muddle the issue and score some points.

 

[BillJ]

I can't speak for LJones. But how people approach it is up to them. I don't know LJones but I think they have every right to be skeptical.

Where my problem comes in at is the idea they aren't trying to refute the claims we're making. It is the jump straight to racism/misogyny is obviously the reason we have issues.

Honestly? I simply haven't found Michael Burnham interesting. Rogue people who are trying to save everyone are a dime-a-dozen anymore. I struggle to think of any great dialogue the character has had in the 12 episodes I've seen.

Yes, a genius who slacks off and would rather act immature than use his intellect for something great. He has to be pushed to do that. Sure there are people like that in 'real life' but remember this isn't real life, it's fiction. And when you look at the relatively small roles for black characters in genre productions, it's important to look at what kind of image are you conveying by putting this jokester on the show and he is your identifiable human black male character?

So every black character has to be a genius for it to not be racism? We have a black female character who is a doctor and who is identified (in the first episode) as one of the very best in the Union fleet.

Only white people can be slackers and the butt of the jokes?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I really liked Sonequa Martin-Green in TWD, she brought a lot of depth an nuance to Sasha whilst also being tough as nails, so I'm sure if she were given a decent Trek series she'd smash it.

So my vote would have to go with Ed Mercer for the sheer better quality of the character overall.

 

[DarKush]

BillJ,

I thought we were having a polite discussion until you went there with the question/accusation about Lamar. Where did I say that if a black character isn't a genius then it's racist depiction? You are the one who mentioned Lamar was a genius in the first place. I pointed out how that felt more tacked on than realized on the show. But instead of addressing that you attempt to twist what I said, really invent something I was supposed to have said. I also said nothing about what roles should be assigned to white people, though I did mention the relative dearth of black characters in genre works, but you didn't want to address that, which is your right.

With racism and misogyny long being part of the national culture it's not out of bounds to speculate if criticizers of a black female character aren't drawing their water from those toxic wells. I'm not saying that's the case all the time, but sometimes I do think that's the case.

 

[BillJ]

I thought we were having a polite discussion until you went there with the question/accusation about Lamar. Where did I say that if a black character isn't a genius then it's racist depiction? You are the one who mentioned Lamar was a genius in the first place. I pointed out how that felt more tacked on than realized on the show. But instead of addressing that you attempt to twist what I said, really invent something I was supposed to have said. I also said nothing about what roles should be assigned to white people, though I did mention the relative dearth of black characters in genre works, but you didn't want to address that, which is your right.

Idiot jokster starship pilot. Think about that. Starship pilot. The man is a starship pilot. That to me says more about who he is than the fact he doesn't always take life seriously. Honestly, TV could use more characters like him.

 

[Owain Taggart]

One of my problems with them was the Klingon dialogue, it just felt like it made it harder for the actors to communicate through that heavy makeup as well.

Yeah, that is certainly a big part of it for why I felt I didn't have that connection with them. I think that in particular was a bad call, IMHO. In theory, it sounded like it would be interesting, and I applaud them for using subtitles, but any scenes the Klingons were in tended to drag. I think that particular aspect of the Klingons had hurt any advantage they were going for. The execution left a lot to be desired.

And I like language and culture, so that pained me. In GoT, some of my favourite parts have been with the Dothraki language, with Daenerys becoming one of my favourite characters.

 

[DarKush]

Idiot jokster starship pilot. Think about that. Starship pilot. The man is a starship pilot. That to me says more about who he is than the fact he doesn't always take life seriously. Honestly, TV could use more characters like him.

To each his own. But my description of Lamar, which stands, has nothing to do with what you were accusing me of saying.

And when I think more about the Lamar character and the Orville there are already two main characters who also 'don't always take life seriously' in Mercer and the navigator, so having a third is somewhat redundant. Granted, that's juxtaposed by the more serious characters, which might also be redundant in some respects too. Though on a show like The Orville with its lighter touch, being 'serious' is a matter of degree.

 

[DarKush]

Yeah, that is certainly a big part of it for why I felt I didn't have that connection with them. I think that in particular was a bad call, IMHO. In theory, it sounded like it would be interesting, and I applaud them for using subtitles, but any scenes the Klingons were in tended to drag. I think that particular aspect of the Klingons had hurt any advantage they were going for. The execution left a lot to be desired.

And I like language and culture, so that pained me. In GoT, some of my favourite parts have been with the Dothraki language, with Daenerys becoming one of my favourite characters.

Dragged is a good description. I think they should've peppered some dialogue with the occasional Klingon phrase, like other Trek series, but had the actors speaking English mostly. I think the pilot narration by T'Kuvma was fine, but after he spoke English that first time, it should've been English for the rest of the way for the Klingons, with like I said, the occasional phrase.

 

[BillJ]

To each his own. But my description of Lamar, which stands, has nothing to do with what you were accusing me of saying.

I wasn't accusing you of saying anything. Though it is frustrating to have a conversation where people are giving detailed reasons why something doesn't work, and what you get in return is simply "you're racist".

 

[DarKush]

I wasn't accusing you of saying anything. Though it is frustrating to have a conversation where people are giving detailed reasons why something doesn't work, and what you get in return is simply "you're racist".

Is that what you think I've done here?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And the Doctor, who chooses to be a single mother by herself, I'm not sure what that says about how McFarlane views black women or black relationships.

Hmmm.

Given that there was literally a whole episode about what an awesome person and awesome mother the doctor is, I'm gonna not go out on a limb at all by saying that The Orville exhibits no evidence of making generalized negative statements about "black women or black relationships."

 

[BillJ]

Is that what you think I've done here?

I just think I would like to hear why I'm wrong on my thoughts on Discovery, without racism being brought into the equation.

I want people to tell me that it is a great show and backup why they feel that way. I want them to point to great bits featuring Burnham and great bits of dialogue I may have missed.

 

[fireproof78]

I just think I would like to hear why I'm wrong on my thoughts on Discovery, without racism being brought into the equation.

I want people to tell me that it is a great show and backup why they feel that way. I want them to point to great bits featuring Burnham and great bits of dialogue I may have missed.

My PM box is always open

 

[DarKush]

I just think I would like to hear why I'm wrong on my thoughts on Discovery, without racism being brought into the equation.

I want people to tell me that it is a great show and backup why they feel that way. I want them to point to great bits featuring Burnham and great bits of dialogue I may have missed.

I never said you were wrong. I said that LJones has a right to be skeptical that racism and/or sexism don't play a role in some of the Burnham and Discovery criticism out there. There are people on this thread and on others on TrekBBS that like the Burnham character and provide some of what you're asking for. Now, that's on you if you choose to read any of that, and also on you if you accept it. You don't have to, which is your right, but it's already out there.

 

[Refuge]

Burnham was hampered by not being a Captain, it was like we are told she is the show's lead but it's kind of like you are watching the understudy. Then layer on her messed up characterisation that is wannabe Vulcan alumni and mutinous Starfleet and we end up with a mishmash second rate officer/specialist only part interesting because of her family ties and perverse connections from a mirror universe. She ends up championing more mutiny and threats of mass destruction. But hey, if the Federation does it then that's different, bring on the medal and tedious speech. That is unlikeable.

Least Ed Mercer looked the part, acted the part and made you care.

 

[DarKush]

Hmmm.

Given that there was literally a whole episode about what an awesome person and awesome mother the doctor is, I'm gonna not go out on a limb at all by saying that The Orville exhibits no evidence of making generalized negative statements about "black women or black relationships."

If it works for you, then okay. It remains to be seen for me. I haven't seen much evidence of black relationships on Orville yet to be as certain.

 

[BillJ]

Least Ed Mercer looked the part, acted the part and made you care.

I think Martin-Green looks the part and can act pretty well. The writing sunk the character for me. They never gave me a reason to care about Michael Burnham.

 

[BillJ]

If it works for you, then okay. It remains to be seen for me. I haven't seen much evidence of black relationships on Orville yet to be as certain.

I haven't seen the entirety of season one yet, so I can't answer this question without some help: were there any black relationships on Discovery?

From what I remember, there weren't. But something could've changed after I tuned out.