Better series lead. Ed Mercer from "Orville" vs Burnham from "Discovery?"

[BillJ]

Apparently, "Discovery" should have had a great deal more of comedy and less angst.

You still don't get it. Discovery didn't need comedy, it needed a sense of adventure and optimism that has been prevalent throughout the franchise. Instead we get marble-mouthed Klingons who are about as interesting chewing on cardboard. We get a Federation who is every bit as "evil" as the Klingons. I guess there are good people on both sides?

I think it is silly to try an pigeon-hole people who don't like the show as racists and misogynists. Sometimes, things simply don't work for people for reasons completely independent of them.

Maybe you should try to point out why we are wrong based on the points we are making? Instead of just crying foul because someone doesn't like something you do...

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think the biggest problem with Discovery was it was trying to do the BIG universe shaking story right off the bat. Watching "The Best of Both Worlds" right now, and the reason why so much of it works is because we've come to know the characters. It is the same with the Klingon arc, starting with "Sins of the Father", the character relationships that had developed up to that point sell the story. Neither would have been anywhere near as interesting (or likely any good) if they had been plopped down as the very first episodes of the series.

The Orville didn't have a big universe shaking story. Its first season was a series of smaller stories that focused on the characters. That is huge to me, I've gotten to know and like these people.

Sometimes, less is more. And someone should communicate that to the Discovery production team.

Enterprise started off small, with episodes about Malcolm's favourite cake and the captain's dog getting sick and it was dreadful. Discovery learned from these mistakes.

If The Orville was official Trek, fans would HATE it. It's the lack of expectation that makes the difference.

 

[BillJ]

Discovery learned from these mistakes.

I'm not sure what they learned? The show was more dull than Enterprise.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm not sure what they learned? The show was more dull than Enterprise.

I disagree. DSC's season 1 was ENT's season 3.

 

[Mudd]

If The Orville was official Trek, fans would HATE it. It's the lack of expectation that makes the difference.

Yeah, no.

It's a meaningless claim, for one thing. Once one admits a hypothetical one can reach any conclusion one pleases.

STD is poorly conceived, for the most part badly designed, and terribly written. Other than that, it's fine.

 

[BillJ]

If The Orville was official Trek, fans would HATE it. It's the lack of expectation that makes the difference.

Only if it were as poorly written as the two years in development Discovery. The flip side is that many people who love Discovery wouldn't pay attention to it if it wasn't part of the Star Trek brand.

STD is poorly conceived, for the most part badly designed, and terribly written. Other than that, it's fine.

They really are wasting the talents of the actors they have. Great group being absolutely wasted on what amounts to bad fan fiction.

 

[F. King Daniel]

STD is poorly conceived, for the most part badly designed, and terribly written. Other than that, it's fine.

The Orville was concieved as a direct imitation of Next Gen/Voyager style Trek. I know they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but come on.

 

[BillJ]

The Orville was concieved as a direct imitation of Next Gen/Voyager style Trek. I know they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but come on.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Discovery.

And how does that make The Orville a lesser show, or somehow prove how good of a show Discovery is?

 

[Mudd]

Only if it were as poorly written as the two years in development Discovery. The flip side is that many people who love Discovery wouldn't pay attention to it if it wasn't part of the Star Trek brand.

Exactly - hypothetical statement is hypothetical.

"If it wasn't called Star Trek it would have bombed."

Meaningless statements.

 

[BillJ]

Exactly - hypothetical statement is hypothetical.

"If it wasn't called Star Trek it would have bombed."

You're right. Because if it wasn't "Star Trek", there's no way CBS would've wasted nearly $10 million dollars an episode on Discovery.

 

[Mudd]

The Orville was concieved[sic] as a direct imitation of Next Gen/Voyager style Trek.

And ir's really good TV.

I mean, I know it's real hard to find something praiseworthy to defend STD with, but come on.

 

[BillJ]

I mean, I know it's real hard to find something praiseworthy to defend STD with...

It is a bit weird. I hear lots of people talking about how good Discovery is, but little in the way of actual details on why it is good.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Discovery.

Why does it have to be? I like Discovery, but it is flawed. It's identity is a mess (We'll just reboot it but call it Prime Universe and the fans will figure out a way to make it all fit), backstage was reportedly chaos and the finale a damp squib. The rumoured concepts for future shows range from awesome (I have been waiting for Starfleet Academy since the unmade 1990's movie) to godawful (Space Hitler and Section 31)

And how does that make The Orville a lesser show, or somehow prove how good of a show Discovery is?

I find it very strange that a format everyone agreed was overused and exhausted gets remade with the only addition being Family Guy-style humour and is suddenly amazing. I like Orville, but to me it's nostalgia. I'm a teenager watching Voyager again.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Wasn't this thread meant specifically not about the two shows in general, but only about the leads? Well, I guess we've seen now how fucking crazy shit can get.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And ir's [sic] really good TV.

 

[BillJ]

I find it very strange that a format everyone agreed was overused and exhausted gets remade with the only addition being Family Guy-style humour and is suddenly amazing.

It isn't the humor that makes it amazing, it is the character relationships. It is that they feel like real people who want to be out there exploring the cosmos. Bortus and Klyden feel like a real couple and real parents, who are navigating a real relationship while trying to do the best they can for their child. Ed and Kelly feel like real people who are actually growing past their difficulties.

One feels like a place I'd want to be, with people I'd love to know. The other is, well, Discovery, where everyone needs to have a trauma or secret.

 

[BillJ]

Wasn't this thread meant specifically not about the two shows in general, but only about the leads? Well, I guess we've seen now how fucking crazy shit can get.

Thread drift.

 

[JRoss]

Wasn't this thread meant specifically not about the two shows in general, but only about the leads? Well, I guess we've seen now how fucking crazy shit can get.

I agree. Getting called a racist has that effect. I don't hold folks' dislike of The Orville or liking of STD against them. We can like and dislike things apart from one another.

 

[BillJ]

I don't hold folks' dislike of The Orville or liking of STD against them.

If someone loves Discovery, they should love it. I try not to judge people's reason for loving things. All I can do is offer my personal point-of-view of why one show is working for me and one isn't.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree. Getting called a racist has that effect. I don't hold folks' dislike of The Orville or liking of STD against them. We can like and dislike things apart from one another.

Indeed. Threads like this are a wonderful in experiment for me to see other people's POV, especially given how disparate mine seems to be at times. I'm glad that there are two shows that people can enjoy so much if for many different reasons.

Maybe you should try to point out why we are wrong based on the points we are making? Instead of just crying foul because someone doesn't like something you do...

I would but those points are largely subjective

One feels like a place I'd want to be, with people I'd love to know. The other is, well, Discovery, where everyone needs to have a trauma or secret.

Both feel real enough to me. There are lots of people who I want to know but I have no doubt that they have a lot of trauma. I know I have my own traumas, many of my coworkers do, and but that isn't common knowledge, beyond the basic sketches.

Everyone does have their traumas and secrets. Discovery is a place where I actually get to learn them.