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Spoilers Demons of the Punjab grade and discussion thread

How do you rate Demons of the Punjab?

  • Total voters
    86
Having not read any of the previous posts yet, here's my unvarnished take on it.

An amazing hour of BBC drama. A great story, well-produced and well-acted.

But it didn't feel like it had to be a Doctor Who story. Things would have progressed nearly exactly the same without their presence at all, and while it greatly illuminated a period of history and shone a light on a cultural event that hasn't been explored nearly enough, it didn't feel like it revealed enough about the characters we followed into the story in order to justify their being there. Like it wanted to be this series' version of Father's Day, but without the consequences for Yaz. *She* gained knowledge about her grandmother, but I don't feel any greater insight into *her* than I did before.

That, and the tone was depressing, akin to Fiddler on the Roof or The Wind That Shakes the Barley, unlike Rosa, which was challenging, maddening, and uncomfortable, but which in the end, tried to be uplifting and hopeful.

So on its own merits, as a BBC drama, I give it a 10 out of 10. As an episode of Doctor Who, I don't know how I feel. It's not one I think I'd ever want to revisit. But I am grateful to it for showing me more about the partition than I ever knew before.

And before anyone tells me that this is analogous to The Aztecs, when they couldn't change history, yes I understand that part of it. I don't need the outcome to change, but I'm missing the impact on our understanding of the characters. In The Aztecs, we got to know the main characters better through the story, most especially Barbara, which didn't happen here at all, at least for me.

It's brilliant in its way, but for me to enjoy it, I'd have wanted more Doctor Who out of it, and more insight into our characters instead of only the guests. But I am capable of recognizing something's value and merit even if I don't enjoy it on an emotional level. It's probably the best told story of the season, by far. Even if I was flashing back to Fiddler on the Roof as soon as I realized an anti-traditionalist wedding was in the off.
 
Superb episode.

I've long been critical of new Who's Earth-centricity / lack of use of Who's essential premise, but this episode demonstrates how well it can work if the writing and the subject matter are sufficiently compelling. Like "Rosa", this episode took an ugly period in history (I'd not been familiar with how poorly planned, badly executed and utterly brutal the Partition was until I read a number of articles on the subject last year around the 70th anniversary) and not only provided some insight into it but pointed up the similarities to present-day events. On that basis the episode worked for me. I don't much care that the Doctor didn't save the day or that the aliens weren't the enemy or whatever else. It was a story about people, how utterly stupid they can be, how trivial and idiotic the things that people use to divide each other so often are, and how decisions made by people nowhere near a place can destroy the lives of the people that live there. SF is as good a vehicle as any to make those points, especially in the times in which we currently live.

A huge step up after last week's dud. More of this sort of quality, please.

matthunter said:
"This is not what I fought for", on Armistice Day. Brilliant.
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Seconded.

Edit:
Forgot to add that the music was brilliant - something else that's definitely stepped up in quality as the series has progressed.

I mentioned reading some articles about Partition last year. For anyone who may be interested, this is one of them.
 
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Having slept on it I still really loved it, but I have to say I am getting a little tired of the Doctor and her companions being mere bystanders to history and I hope Jodie gets a bit more agency as we go along. At the moment they're too much like the aliens here, witnesses and nothing more.

Still probably the best episode of the season so far for me.

BTW, anyone else get a real Titanic vibe from this?
 
Don't know what it is but this season isn't reaching me. There was nothing wrong with it except for me it dragged a little 2/3 way through, and Prem's death was powerful, but I know a reasonable amount about Partition (hell, an episode of Who Do You Think You Are with Meera Syal was more personal than this) so knew it wouldn't end well. And Team Tardis have to be aware there's only so much they can do. It might be interesting to get a historical with zero aliens in it and they have to let unpleasant events ride (extreme example, lynching in Southern US or death of MLK. Almost exactly like 'City On The Edge of Forever').

StCoop said:
If I wanted to watch a nearly 60 year old version of the show I'd pop in a DVD.
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One thing I've learned about history is that while the events do not change, our understanding of them does, almost constantly. Imagine a redo of, say, 'The Aztecs' with Thirteen.
 
Overnight figure down again 5.77 million (still not exactly unhealthy but be nice it the numbers at least stabilised.) Can't argue Bonfire night this week.
 
From Tom Spilsbury on Twitter
Accounting for BARB’s slightly revised figures, the consolidated (7-day) Doctor Who ratings so far are as follows:
Ep1 10.96m (10.54m+0.42m)
Ep2 9.00m (8.67m+0.33m)
Ep3 8.41m (8.09m+0.33m)
Ep4 8.22m (7.97m+0.25m)
Ep5 7.76m (7.49m+0.27m)
Ep6 is on course for around 7.5m.
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Who knows. I just happened to see the tweet right after reading your post but he doesn't seem too hopeful for the rest of the series with the earlier timeslot and the increased competition for same evening catch up.
 
Quietly engrossing, thought-provoking and emotional, with some lovely musical flourishes - my favourite score of the series so far, I think - and I too was reminded of Babylon 5's soul collectors. I'm a sucker for twists of this nature, that the assumed nasties turn out to be nothing of the sort, and this was a well-executed one; the last moment in their vessel I found especially moving.

As pedantic about dialogue as I can be, a spot of polish here and there wouldn't have gone amiss, and I do think there was the occasional slightly stiff moment of acting from the guest stars, but these do little to detract from the many strengths of the ep. I do concur that this series does at times feel like a worthy Sunday evening drama that just happens to have the Doctor in it, but it's a quality one, and I'm still hopeful it'll grow into itself.
 
The Nth Doctor said:
Marco Polo, The Aztecs, The Reign of Terror, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve...

Or if you want modern examples:

"The Girl in the Fireplace," "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood," "The Fires of Pompeii," "Vincent and the Doctor"...

So, yeah, they never managed to make a good one. ;)
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There are no modern historicals in NuWho, only Pseudo-Historicals. Plus, a historical has to feature people from history, not just involve people in the past or the doctor going to the past, so The Girl in the Fireplace, Fires of Pompeii and The Devil's Shit duology (aka the worst fucking episodes in the Doctor Who Franchise, Human Nature/Family of Blood) aren't even pseudo-Historicals in my opinion. Also, marco Polo is absolute shit, I could barely stand watching even the rushed reconstruction on the Doctor who: The Beginning DVD, its the one story I legitimately hope is never found. TRoT and TMoSBE are both almost universally panned from what I've read over the years, although I haven't watched the stories/recons because they're, well, shitty historicals and I'd rather gauge my eyes out at this point.

Also, you know what a big difference between Aztecs (one of the only good pure historicals) and this shitty episode is? The Doctor and crew were integral to the story. You could not have had the story without them. As opposed to this, which feels like it was an already filmed Docudrama that wasn't released for some reason, so Doctor Who adapted the footage into a shitty episode to save money.
 
  • Didn't need the aliens
  • Liked that the episode started on the day of the Partition
  • Didn't like the constant use of the sonic screwdriver magic wand to make up for running back to the ship to get proper tracing equipment and thusly create an actual sense of urgency instead of the typical paint-by-numbers garbage that has been the bulk of this series so far
  • Doctor is now able to pick up telepathic messages from aliens like never before
  • Doctor seems unsure if she was a women ever before, despite previous episode having her say she was
  • Didn't like the constant use of the sonic screwdriver magic wand to make up for running back to the ship to get actual tracing equipment or seeing a panel showing there's a disturbance in some energy wavelength or something as basic. That Stenza crystal she nicked really does a lot more than ever before, does it...
  • Not enough animosity toward evil Brit Graham by the locals
  • Doctor isn't doing as many jokes this time, that's a big plus
  • Yaz's gran-as-older-self doesn't remember Yaz but they weren't together long enough for her to be that memorable, especially 71 years later
  • No need of psychic paper to get around a plot problem of getting the locals to like her, unlike 2 episodes ago
  • Good incidental music except at the end
  • Nice attempt to describe piloting the TARDIS, forgetting that she's taken them back to Sheffield enough times correctly without the swiss cheese exposition. The telepathic circuits were originally devised as communication to the time lords, but we have a sonic screwdriver now that seems telepathic and the TARDIS appears out of nowhere on cue and opens after she whines about not having a key, so keep scribbling it out Chibs...
  • Show us the evil turtle monsters, don't just have anyone tell it - yawn!
  • Didn't like the constant use of the sonic screwdriver magic wand to make up for running back to the ship to get proper tracing equipment
  • Will there be a Doctor Who branded safe-for-kiddies chemistry kit for sale now? Or just selling more magic wands?

Next week appears so beyond cornball, but then what I expected for the hospital soap opera last week didn't revel in the expected cliches, so I might try watching and keep my... insouciance to the side, I suppose. Chibnall isn't writing it but he's still head writer of an ensemble so who knows what he'll shoehorn in. Like more pointless aliens or sonic screwdriver magic wand scenes. Maybe he'll have an episode where it's on for all 50 minutes. Felt like that for this week's story.

7/10, easily could have been a 9 if there weren't too many edits and overuse of the magic wand, in a show that's relying on it not as a crutch but as a motorized wheelchair with V6 engine mod. Or 10 if it was a proper historical for the modern era without 3rd party monsters crowding in. At least the Vajarians didn't feel as shoehorned and forced as evil leaper fonzie from "Rosa"
 
kirk55555 said:
There are no modern historicals in NuWho, only Pseudo-Historicals. Plus, a historical has to feature people from history, not just involve people in the past or the doctor going to the past,
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It's nice to read some people aren't conflating "pseudohistorical" as "historical", those who do are cheating themselves.
 
kirk55555 said:
Plus, a historical has to feature people from history, not just involve people in the past or the doctor going to the past, so The Girl in the Fireplace... doesn't count
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I'm not sure how Madame du Pompadour ISN'T a person from history. I'm sure you'll come up with an explanation that gives you another opportunity to explain how you would like to gouge your eyes out, though.

Seriously, man, you should seek help for all this self-mutilation.
 
I thought this was the best episode of the season, but my issues with the season still remain. The episode was emotional, and reminded me a lot of CIty on the Edge of Forever. It was a nice vehicle to flesh out Yaz and I think the actress did a good job.

However, this episode also spotlighted the issues I have with the season overall, which is it just feels too busy. I don't think the three companion thing is working, mainly because the Companions feel like side characters with no emotional resonance. Imagine if this episode just featured Yaz and the Doctor, and Graham and Ryan wasn't there. I think it would have been a much more intimate story. Also, can someone destroy the sonic screwdriver please? It's become an annoying plot device, even more so than the Tennant years. I don't remember Capaldi or Smith using as the sonic as much as Whittiker's doctor has. I thing I actually love about her doctor that I wish she did more of is she's a great builder of things. The scene with the science experiment was great, as was actually building the screwdriver itself. It's just now that thing is being used almost all the time and it's a bit annoying.
 
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