Spoilers Demons of the Punjab grade and discussion thread

[matthunter]

Yeah, that is a nice touch but I think what drags them down a bit is how The Doctor and others initially mistook them as evildoers. I get that it was suppose to be deliberately misleading all the way to the point the that they weren't the eponymous demons, but I feel like that diversion takes away from the larger points of the excellent episode.

Mmm... not sure. It does help hammer home the "different is not evil" point the ep was making. The whole point is that the various societies in India had fought together and then were partitioned on religious grounds. Here, despite knowing that the Doctor is alien and working with humans, we are tricked into thinking the aliens MUST be the bad guys. And the Doctor even falls prey to it herself, because of her fondness for humans...

 

[diankra]

Oh dear, yet another episode that seems to have wandered in from another series in which our 'heroes' are mostly ineffectual and barely effect the plot.

I understand the desire to reinvent the series after Moffat's version drove millions of viewers away but if you're going to turn it into something that's Doctor Who in name only, what's the point?

Ah, Hartnell historicals?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Mmm... not sure. It does help hammer home the "different is not evil" point the ep was making. The whole point is that the various societies in India had fought together and then were partitioned on religious grounds. Here, despite knowing that the Doctor is alien and working with humans, we are tricked into thinking the aliens MUST be the bad guys. And the Doctor even falls prey to it herself, because of her fondness for humans...

Hm, okay. That's a good way of looking at it. I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I watch the episode and see if that improves my enjoyment. That one niggle is the only thing that's keeping me from giving this episode a perfect score.

 

[matthunter]

Ah, Hartnell historicals?

Well, I've made that point already. But here's another. Hartnell historicals were educational but not overly combative. They focused on ancient history, or stuff at least a century removed.

Chibbers is educating the layperson on the ugliness of stuff within our own family's lifetimes. Because we're making those same mistakes today. Wilf might have alluded to concentration camps under RTD, but those were things the "bad guys" did. Chibbers is pointing at segregation and partition as acts the "good guys" did, and saying remember, analyse and be better.

Moff only nodded and winked at this with Nixon being prepared to accept a white/black relationship but not a homosexual one, with the involved party humouring him on such.

 

[Jax]

WOW, I thought Rosa was a one off but dam this was TV at it's finest and fufill the promise of Doctor Who, to inform us about our own history and not just wonder our imagination. I love how the Aliens were not the villains but essentially Time Lords for the dead and the acting was out of this world.

OH, BRILLIANT

It's weird that at times I've struggled to get to grips with the new revamp of Doctor Who but at the same time two episodes (Rosa & Demons of the Punjab) from the season are quite possibly the best from the show's entire existence.

 

[Starkers]

That's more like it. A story for all ages, great performances (especially Jodie) and not quite as sledge hammery as Rosa had been.

Just one problem really, yet again the Doctor and her companions are essentially pointless, again! And again there's no real villain, thankfully the writing was strong enough that tonight it worked.

Probably the strongest episode of the series so far, but given its the first episode not even partly written by the showrunner that is a bit worrying.

 

[Mage]

and the acting was out of this world.

I've actually had acting lessons, and....... no.

There were moments here where someone would speak a line, and the actor opposite would have to respond. In acting, we learn how to respond while the other is speaking. Here, actors heard what was said, remained quite for seconds as if to proces, then respond. In real life, you already start to respond when someone is still talking. When, in acting, you take these long pauses, that's horrid and bad. And that was half of this episode.
I would like to point out, that when this happened, it was the guest actors, not the main cast.

 

[Mr Soak]

With regards to the point where Graham basically said, "how much do we really know about ourselves" - I'm wondering if it ties into the Timeless Child, and the Doctor not knowing everything about her early life. I like the return to the Hartnell-esque low stakes/witnessing history style. And having a "family" allows a broader range of stories and perspectives.

 

[Jax]

I've actually had acting lessons

Cute.

 

[diankra]

I've actually had acting lessons, and....... no.

There were moments here where someone would speak a line, and the actor opposite would have to respond. In acting, we learn how to respond while the other is speaking. Here, actors heard what was said, remained quite for seconds as if to proces, then respond. In real life, you already start to respond when someone is still talking. When, in acting, you take these long pauses, that's horrid and bad. And that was half of this episode.
I would like to point out, that when this happened, it was the guest actors, not the main cast.

Stage acting with a direct response, or film acting with a single take to a stand-in?
If the latter looks lame, it's because of bad editing.

 

[diankra]

Well, I've made that point already. But here's another. Hartnell historicals were educational but not overly combative. They focused on ancient history, or stuff at least a century removed.

Chibbers is educating the layperson on the ugliness of stuff within our own family's lifetimes. Because we're making those same mistakes today. Wilf might have alluded to concentration camps under RTD, but those were things the "bad guys" did. Chibbers is pointing at segregation and partition as acts the "good guys" did, and saying remember, analyse and be better.

Moff only nodded and winked at this with Nixon being prepared to accept a white/black relationship but not a homosexual one, with the involved party humouring him on such.

Whitaker had a rule: nothing in the last 300 years. Though Reign of Terror broke that.

 

[kirk55555]

Bland, or to put it another way its like every single other episode of Series 11. . There is a reason Doctor Who dropped historicals (probably because they never managed to make a good one). I'll watch History channel if I want a half assed Docudrama, at least then I can spend my time spotting all the b to d list actors they somehow hire for those things.

If this lack of quality keeps going, it will no longer just be bland and average, it will just be a bad series.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

There is a reason Doctor Who dropped historicals (probably because they never managed to make a good one).

Marco Polo, The Aztecs, The Reign of Terror, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve...

Or if you want modern examples:

"The Girl in the Fireplace," "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood," "The Fires of Pompeii," "Vincent and the Doctor"...

So, yeah, they never managed to make a good one.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Had the same kind of impact as the episode about Vincent van Gogh. Strongest episode so far. An adult story that children can still enjoy with a bit of historical education thrown in. Truly the spirit of the old Doctor Who.

Definitely this is channelling old Dr. Who where it was aimed at being a semi educational show in its early roots. It wasn't bad at all.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I probably judged this episode more harshly than most. I liked the subject, and the story ... but those "remembrance aliens" really annoyed me.

I struggle with the concept of remembrance day as it is, the whole thing always seems heavily politicised in (at least to me) the wrong way.

I know those aliens had changed their ways before starting this practice, but most of those in power who tend to politicise it now are often still warmongers (or at least use remembrance as a means to silence pacifists/war critics etc.) so the actual parallel soured me to them.

It's a shame because my dad (who I have no contact with) was actually born not too far from there, not too long before the partition. Would have loved to have given this episode higher than a six... probably should have, and I know I'm repeating myself here, but those aliens just bugged me so much.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Bland, or to put it another way its like every single other episode of Series 11. . There is a reason Doctor Who dropped historicals (probably because they never managed to make a good one). I'll watch History channel if I want a half assed Docudrama, at least then I can spend my time spotting all the b to d list actors they somehow hire for those things.

If this lack of quality keeps going, it will no longer just be bland and average, it will just be a bad series.

I saw many of the now lost historical episodes of the 1st and 2nd Doctors and they were good enough for me to have memories of them more than 45 years later. When the Third Doctor was marooned on Earth in the 20th Century I was disappointed that he was no longer visiting the past but I did get my time travelling fix from ‘The Time Tunnel’. However as much as I know I enjoyed ‘The Time Tunnel’ I have no memories of single episode of it. This shows the impact those Who episodes had on me. They were enjoyable and after them I used to look up the people/places/events portrayed in our encyclopaedias.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

This was great. Lovely little story, great historical, good character moments for everyone, Yaz! Great writing on this one. Graham continues to shine. Ryan has a great moments in the background and reacting to Graham. The Doctor felt much more Doctor-y this time, even as she was a passenger. Interesting that the historicals seem to be so strong and the sci-fi episodes feel a little light. Definitely a conscious return to the Hartnell-era style.

I liked the "turn" on the aliens, even if they were very similar to the memory aliens from Twice Upon A Time. And there's a great message in there - as someone said, harkening back to "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield." Neat design too, sort of Mind Flayers from D&D.

I don't think this one was quite as strong as Rosa, the Mind Flayers are more-or-less superfluous and could've been cut in lieu of more stuff, that said, it was still very good. Clear sign that we can't have so many Chibnall-penned episodes next series.

 

[Gov Kodos]

On a side note, the Kisar's death observing reminded me of something and I can't quite put my finger on it. And no, it's not Marvel's The Watchers that I'm trying to recall. This is going to bug me until I figure it out.

Great episode. The observing and collecting reminded me of the soul hunters in Babylon 5.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I don't know, it's all well-meaning enough but I can feel it already sliding from my memory cells. Do you all reckon you're actually going to rewatch this one?

 

[Mage]

Cute.

I am.

Stage acting with a direct response, or film acting with a single take to a stand-in?
If the latter looks lame, it's because of bad editing.

Both. And there shots in this episode where the person being talked to was just blank. Untill he or she had to respond. Even when working with a stand-in, it's still bad acting. You learn to respond all the time, not just when you have a line.