Spoilers Demons of the Punjab grade and discussion thread

[Gavin70]

Well I really enjoyed that. This season is shaping up to be one of my favourites. It's clear that this season isn't for everyone, but it's definitely working for me. A little predictable once we found out that the aliens weren't bad guys, but still very enjoyable.

I think the main reason there are people saying "it's not Doctor Who" is that over the last 55 years Doctor Who has had a number of extremely different eras. So it really depends which eras you like in regard to how you define what is or isn't Doctor Who. But for me this series is definitely evoking memories of a number of aspects of the classic era.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

They don't see it as racist jokes because their is no real dislike between them. They see it as Blue Humor or "Breaking Balls" to take a phrase from another show. Me I wouldn't be much into it either but then again it doesn't really matter what I or you would think. Spock and McCoy clearly have a love for each other and enjoy the banter and back and forth. If that is how they like to share their feelings why is it wrong for anyone to tell them the way they treat each other is wrong. It's their life and their feelings.
To me the conflict was always very character oriented and never really went much into race and even when race is brought up it's only to inform on how they feel about each other and not all the other Vulcans and Humans out their. At most you might get a observation but they never went angry with them. Spock never hated humans because he thought they could be capable of doing bad thinks and McCoy never hated the Vulcan people because they weren't more human like with their emotions.

Jason

Your constant equation of love with abusive language is concerning.

 

[Mr Awe]

McCoy's behavior towards Spock because neither were real,

Wait. What?!

 

[Jayson1]

I am on disability benefits. I'm used to people saying that we should cut social security payments, that people who get social security are scroungers, that people should work if they expect to receive social security. It still hurts when a friend echoes it, even if they say and believe "I don't mean you, I don't mean people who really need it." They don't hate me. They don't wish me any harm. But that's the thing, it's easy to believe something in the abstract. It's easy to say it doesn't apply to the people I know and yet still be saying and doing bigoted things.

To me though it's a individual issue. What might be a sensitive subject to you or me might not be the case with another person. Everyone responds different to, blue humor or dark humor. Everyone is different. For example I know I personally can take any joke about me but I always get sensitive if people think I am being a mean person or insincere. I don't like it when people call my a liar. I think we all different and all respond to things differently when it comes to humor with family and friends.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Your constant equation of love with abusive language is concerning.

It's not about my views. It's about what you think Spock and McCoy think about each other. Are you telling me when you watch "TOS" you don't think they don't love each other and even enjoy trying to get a rise out of each other? It's played through acting and performance as playful and not mean spirited. This is much different than say what you see years later between Sisko and Solock in the baseball episode. Solock really does hate humans and you can tell in his behavior. It does raise questions as to how he could make it in Starfleet so long much less become a Captain other than he must do a better job of hiding his views around other people than he did with Sisko.



Jason

 

[Professor Zoom]

What Silence? I don't remember any Silence. I'm sure I'd remember them if I'd seen them.


Well considering the drop off between the 1st and 2nd episodes I'm not surprised the show has only lasted 55 years. I'm sure it will be cancelled any day now. If that second episode had been better the show might have lasted much longer.


There was a clear amount of prejudice in his behaviour, especially during the original episodes. It gradually moved to more light hearted bantering but there were elements of racism (specisism?) that would have to be portrayed differently today. In a couple of the novels it was portrayed in a different manner - it was less about McCoy having an issue with Spock being Vulcan/logical and more a case that as Ship's Doctor, he realised that Spock, as half Human, needed to have some emotional release that he was denying himself in his quest to be the perfect Vulcan. So from that perspective the taunts were more about getting Spock to react in an emotional manner (for his own good) than being anything McCoy particularly believed. I do like that approach more. And then as their relationship developed into friendship, and Spock embraced his human half it became more of a two way good natured needling between two friends.

For his own good? Damn. To me, that makes McCoy even worse.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

Making racist jokes at your friends is a shitty thing to do, I don't care what your excuse is or how much you care for them. If you think that your friend is fine with it, mostly likely they don't really consider you their friend.

::applause::

It's not about my views. It's about what you think Spock and McCoy think about each other. Are you telling me when you watch "TOS" you don't think they don't love each other and even enjoy trying to get a rise out of each other? It's played through acting and performance as playful and not mean spirited. This is much different than say what you see years later between Sisko and Solock in the baseball episode. Solock really does hate humans and you can tell in his behavior. It does raise questions as to how he could make it in Starfleet so long much less become a Captain other than he must do a better job of hiding his views around other people than he did with Sisko.

As this is your interpretation, it is about your views. That's how analysis works - you bring your views and opinions to the table. The relationship works because of their performance, despite some poor writing in an era were these types of jokes were considered fine. And there are times when they are gently chiding each other - especially over Emotion vs. Logic. But typically McCoy's invective is much sharper and more pointed at biological (pointed ears, green blood, calling him "hobgoblin") factors or social factors than Spock's. (Though Spock is somewhat guilty of some Vulcan haughtiness, he's also half-human and has a unique perspective on Human and Vulcan relations.) Again, this gets tamped down as the seasons went on and is mostly absent by the time the movies get on and it's clearer that Spock and McCoy are friends absent Kirk.

For his own good? Damn. To me, that makes McCoy even worse.

Yeah, I'm not sure "I want to bait you into being more emotional" is a good thing? It reminds me that Into Darkness (and the Kelvin-verse in general) is preoccupied with the crew "breaking" Spock of his Vulcan side to embrace his human side and I can't help but feel like that's a terrible thing to encourage in the modern era.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, I'm not sure "I want to bait you into being more emotional" is a good thing? It reminds me that Into Darkness (and the Kelvin-verse in general) is preoccupied with the crew "breaking" Spock of his Vulcan side to embrace his human side and I can't help but feel like that's a terrible thing to encourage in the modern era.

Wasn't Spock the first Human/Vulcan kid? Like, what would McCoy know about that life? What research had been done? In the original series, McCoy seemed to know fuck all about Vulcan biology, save for the green blood. The Klingons were right in Star Trek 6, human are so fucking human centric.

Maybe it would've been better for Spock to be cool with being logical?

Isn't it a bit like, "hey, Mormon friend, you should just chill out with all your Mormon beliefs, you would be much healthier, here have a drink, be like me, see how cool I am?"

 

[Bob The Skutter]

To me though it's a individual issue. What might be a sensitive subject to you or me might not be the case with another person. Everyone responds different to, blue humor or dark humor. Everyone is different. For example I know I personally can take any joke about me but I always get sensitive if people think I am being a mean person or insincere. I don't like it when people call my a liar. I think we all different and all respond to things differently when it comes to humor with family and friends.

Jason

Maybe it is personal in jokes that only a friend could get away with. But honestly it seems very unlikely you'd make racial jokes in a professional environment, even if it was just an in joke.

 

[Awesome Possum]

They don't see it as racist jokes because their is no real dislike between them. They see it as Blue Humor or "Breaking Balls" to take a phrase from another show. Me I wouldn't be much into it either but then again it doesn't really matter what I or you would think. Spock and McCoy clearly have a love for each other and enjoy the banter and back and forth. If that is how they like to share their feelings why is it wrong for anyone to tell them the way they treat each other is wrong. It's their life and their feelings.
To me the conflict was always very character oriented and never really went much into race and even when race is brought up it's only to inform on how they feel about each other and not all the other Vulcans and Humans out their. At most you might get a observation but they never went angry with them. Spock never hated humans because he thought they could be capable of doing bad thinks and McCoy never hated the Vulcan people because they weren't more human like with their emotions.

Jason

Racist people don't see what they do as racist, that doesn't make it not racist. You have no excuse, ever.

 

[Kemaiku]

Racist people don't see what they do as racist, that doesn't make it not racist. You have no excuse, ever.

The Enterprise had a surprising amount of xenophobic people operating a deep space vessel whose entire goddamned job was meeting entirely alien cultures.

McCoy makes the least sense. His job, as medical officer of the flag ship, was treating 400+ people of various alien species *and* every new alien race they met.

I know there are racist doctors jailed every year for letting patients they "don't approve of" die, but we fucking strike them off and, you know, jail them.

 

[Jayson1]

Maybe it is personal in jokes that only a friend could get away with. But honestly it seems very unlikely you'd make racial jokes in a professional environment, even if it was just an in joke.

I agree that they do play fast and loose in regards to it being in a work area but I see some of this stuff as embracing poetic license. It's easier to play some of the scenes on the bridge for example than to film in their quarters or some hangout which is something they never really ever created for the show. We saw the gym once and the mess hall but not places people would just go and really relax at. Not to mention if you only have like 5 days to film a episode it's maybe more efficent to have Bones and Spock make their barbs in a place where you can film it as fast as possible and then move onto the next scene. The other issue is a starship is also a non-traditional type of workplace. When you live on a starship like they do your basically always at work 24/7. Even when your off duty your not really off the job. Then your basically their for 5 years straight.


Jason

 

[Redfern]

Getting back to the episode, why didn't the Doctor's scanner (sorry, sonic screwdriver) inform her that the Holy Man died from a frickin' bullet wound?! That would have eliminated a lot of confusion and wrongful assumptions.

 

[Gavin70]

Getting back to the episode, why didn't the Doctor's scanner (sorry, sonic screwdriver) inform her that the Holy Man died from a frickin' bullet wound?! That would have eliminated a lot of confusion and wrongful assumptions.

Forget the sonic screwdriver, generally if someone's been shot you can tell just by looking at them. Unless considerable effort has been taken to shoot them in a way that the bullet wound isn't obvious.