‘Agents of Shield’ most popular superhero show on TV

[LJones41]

AoS' Pilot needed to be as good as, if not better than, every other episode of television that Joss had ever written or co-written, and it wasn't; it was a bloated and incoherent mess that made me embarrassed for him.

I don't agree. The pilot episode for "Friends" was not that memorable. Hell, I can say the same for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", "Babylon 5" or "Angel".

Ever since the pilot episode of "Lost" aired, many people seemed to have this attitude that the first show of every series (especially if it is science-fiction/fantasy) has to be mind blowing. The problem is that every series I've seen with a mind blowing pilot or first season, seemed to decline in quality over the years to me. Including "Lost".

For me, the pilot episode of "Agents of SHIELD" was okay, but not particularly mind blowing. All it did was set up the characters and the season long story arc. Which was enough for me.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I know that; however, because the Pilot was trash, it put the rest of the series at a huge disadvantage. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and AoS' first impression wasn't good.

A huge disadvantage does not mean the show is incapable of rebounding anyway. Which it clearly has.

Give me some specific examples of Joss-written episodes that weren't good.

First of all, this is moving the goalposts. The claim you made was that AoS's pilot *had* to be amazing because Joss 'Strikes Gold' with every tv episode he writes. Good enough isn't good enough to support the claim you're making.

So here are some Joss writtens episodes that were not by any means 'golden':

BtvS
Welcome to the Hellmouth - Ok as proof of concept, still needs way more development.
The Harvest - Ditto
When She Was Bad - Generic and predictable
Ted - Forgettable except for John Ritter
Amends - Generic, predictable and soapy
The Freshman - Honestly outright bad
Chosen - It was a rousing finale, but with some glaring flaws.

Angel
Spin the Bottle - It's ok.

Firefly
The Message - it was ok at best.

Dollhouse
All of it. Honestly, I find Dollhouse interesting enough as a concept that I'll rewatch it at least once more before I get rid of it, and its not a bad show overall, but there isn't a single 'excellent' episode in the entire show.

Calling AoS' Pilot garbage - especially by Joss' usual standards - is judging the show on its own merits.

No it isn't because the Show is not the Pilot, and Joss' usual standards aren't even relevant to a show that he has *no real involvement in*.

 

[Turtletrekker]

And frankly, while not amazing, the pilot was far from "garbage".

 

[Skywalker]

Most pilots I've seen have not been especially great, and that's okay. Pilots very rarely represent a show in its final form; more often than not they're more like proofs of concept, and the shows will usually drop what didn't work and expand upon/refine what did work. All they have to do is show me enough potential to make me want to give the rest of the show a chance, and that's what AoS' pilot did.

 

[DigificWriter]

Joss Whedon is one of my personal idols, and so I hold his work to a very high standard, and it is my firm belief that even a "mediocre" Joss -penned script is better than most other scriptwriters' work.

AoS' Pilot likely would not have been as disappointing if it had been (co)written by anyone other than Joss, but he didn't even make it to "mediocre" with the story.

Also: I will forever maintain that Dollhouse is Joss' best television series ever, and if you know my history and the love that I hold for some of his other shows, particularly Firefly, you'll recognize just how significant that statement is.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's perfectly reasonable to judge a show by its pilot when the pilot is the only thing you have to evaluate.

But five years down the road one should probably look at the bigger picture.

 

[Gaith]

Thread is too pedantic and contentious. Needs more pics of Daisy looking fine.

That's better.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

When you're somebody like Joss Whedon who has struck gold everytime you've written an episode of television, you don't get the benefit of being able to "fail out of the gate" and improve later.

The Whedon part is patently false. This is the same Whedon behind the failed Firefly, the failed Dollhouse, and let us not pretend Buffy was some masterclass in TV writing. He's far from even near-perfect as a creator or writer.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I have to admit to being on Agents of SHIELD withdrawal this season. My anticipation level for season 6 is exceeded only by my anticipation level for Avengers 4. About on par with Captain Marvel, which not coincidentally also features Agent Phil Coulson.

Thread is too pedantic and contentious. Needs more pics of Daisy looking fine.

That's better.

Agreed.

Let's see some love for Elizabeth Henstridge / Jemma Simmons as well.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm still crossing my fingers for a Coulson and team cameo during that mega-crossover scene they've been touting for The Untitled Sequel.

Silence to all of those who are going to say "but the movies and television are separate divisions!" Let me have my hope, damnit!

 

[DigificWriter]

The Whedon part is patently false. This is the same Whedon behind the failed Firefly, the failed Dollhouse, and let us not pretend Buffy was some masterclass in TV writing. He's far from even near-perfect as a creator or writer.

Neither Firefly nor Dollhouse "failed".

And Buffy is the first (and possibly only) television series to actually inspire education classes, so your opinion of it doesn't hold water.

 

[Tuskin38]

Joss Whedon is one of my personal idols, and so I hold his work to a very high standard, and it is my firm belief that even a "mediocre" Joss -penned script is better than most other scriptwriters' work.

AoS' Pilot likely would not have been as disappointing if it had been (co)written by anyone other than Joss, but he didn't even make it to "mediocre" with the story.

Also: I will forever maintain that Dollhouse is Joss' best television series ever, and if you know my history and the love that I hold for some of his other shows, particularly Firefly, you'll recognize just how significant that statement is.

How can someone be so narrow minded?

 

[DigificWriter]

How can someone be so narrow minded?

What, exactly, is "narrow-minded" about the post you quoted?

 

[Turtletrekker]

A follow-up report from ScreenRant based on Parrot data indicates that the entire Marvel Television brand is very strong-- right down to Cloak and Dagger and Runaways. While citing the cancelled Luke Cage and Iron Fist as the shows having the weakest "brands", they are still strong enough that shopping them elsewhere (say, Hulu, after the Fox/Disney deal goes down and Disney owns 60%) is still within the realm of possibility.

 

[JD]

Hell, even the first season can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the first season was that it had to spend the first two thirds of it in a holding pattern until The Winter Soldier was released. The last third of the season, starting with The Winter Soldier crossover, is one of the show's high points.

I forgot that was all part of Season 1, I was thinking the Hydra stuff didn't start until Season 2.

I know that; however, because the Pilot was trash, it put the rest of the series at a huge disadvantage. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and AoS' first impression wasn't good.
Calling AoS' Pilot garbage - especially by Joss' usual standards - is judging the show on its own merits.

I'm very forgiving of pilots, they're almost never as good as the series becomes once it's really established itself. All I need from a pilot to get me to stick around is an interesting concept, and good characters, and AoS had both of those.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Skeptical. Top 0.03 percent of in-demand TV shows worldwide? Sounds like it's time for a sanity check on the methodology.

Tom Bacon, who wrote the article for Screenrant and also happens to be an Admin in the Marvel Cinematic Universe group on Facebook, elaborated on the process in a post there. The methodology seems sound and thorough to me...

Well, for the record, before working on the article I've been liaising with Parrot Analytics for about the last two weeks. They walked me through some of their methodology. Basically, they measure demand as the desire for a particular TV show as expressed by audiences on a variety of platforms. They capture and combine billions of digital touchpoints including:
--> Social media engagement from platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, etc.
-->Research and access to informational sites and critic blogs
-->Public streaming on YouTube and DailyMotion
-->Global file-sharing and peer-to-peer traffic from sites like uTorrent and Popcorn Time (they own the patent for this type of data collection)

The output is carefully weighted to reflect the level of engagement - so, for example, a file-share is a heavier weighting than a tweet. Essentially, they're assessing the level of engagement people have online with each individual TV show. Meanwhile, they also run a per capita adjustment to allow country-by-country comparisons, otherwise countries with higher populations (e.g. China) would dominate.
.
Parrot seem very reputable - to the extent that networks use them to assess the strength of their brands or to identify levels of demand in potential TV shows. Meanwhile, the Guinness Book of Records consider their methodology solid enough to use them as a data-source for their official "Most In-Demand TV Shows."
.
Interestingly, the data they've passed me on the Marvel Netflix correlates perfectly with that of other analytics firms I've spoken with. It does have one gap as regards Marvel Netflix; you see, based on some previous analytics I've worked with, my suspicion is that people engage with the Marvel Netflix shows as a discrete brand in its own right, not as individual shows. I can't prove that, however, but that's my suspicion.

He also noted that he is be going into Parrot's findings on the Arrowverse and eventually possibly Trek as well.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Neither Firefly nor Dollhouse "failed".

Both short-lived and cancelled. By any official measure, both failed. Fandom for Whedon does not spin that fact.

And Buffy is the first (and possibly only) television series to actually inspire education classes, so your opinion of it doesn't hold water.

What? Please do yourself and brush up on TV history, and you will find that your quote is not even orbiting reality, and does not make Buffy some sort of example of great writing

 

[Snick27]

Got my son hooked on the series now. He loves it and loved season 4. They have to get Ghost Rider back. Anyway has there been any news about storylines for next season and how long is the season going to be? I heard 10 but I hope that isn't true, that too short and sounds like they are going to end the show which is horrible. This is the only Marvel show I watch and cant stand the Netflix series. And when is Disney going to go all DC and put their shows on a streaming site?

 

[DigificWriter]

Both short-lived and cancelled. By any official measure, both failed. Fandom for Whedon does not spin that fact.

Firefly was not cancelled; it was deliberately sabotaged.

And FOX allowed Dollhouse a full two seasons to tell a complete story.

Stating these things is not spin; it is stating fact.

[QUOTEWhat? Please do yourself and brush up on TV history, and you will find that your quote is not even orbiting reality, and does not make Buffy some sort of example of great writing[/QUOTE]

You've clearly never heard of Buffy Studies.

Also, give me one example of another television series that preceded Buffy and actually inspired academic research and study.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Firefly was not cancelled; it was deliberately sabotaged.

Firefly was cancelled.

From Hollywood Reporter interviews:

Baldwin:

"I was doing homework with my seventh grader in the trailer. [Mimes someone knocking on the trailer door.] “Come to the stage, they canceled us!”

Fillion:

"We had three more days of shooting after we were canceled and I remember thinking, “This is going to be the worst. Every day is going to be painful reminder of what we’re losing and it’s going to be one of the saddest, most horrifying three days of the shooting.”

Please stick to the facts. Firefly was cancelled. There's no mystery, hoodoo or alternate universe course of events. It was cancelled.

And FOX allowed Dollhouse a full two seasons to tell a complete story.

Dollhouse was cancelled. This was not intended to be a short run series (which was not "full" with the last 13 produced); the ratings were abysmal and it was canceled.

Stating these things is not spin; it is stating fact.

No, the fact is that two Whedon series were unsuccessful and cancelled. No fan hand-waving alters that.

You've clearly never heard of Buffy Studies.

Clearly, you have never heard of Philosophy and Star Trek, which is far from the only college course based on the franchise. There's courses on soap operas (University of Wisconsin) and other TV productions. Again, brush up on TV real TV history. Buffy is not remotely unique in this category.