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‘Agents of Shield’ most popular superhero show on TV

When you're somebody like Joss Whedon who has struck gold everytime you've written an episode of television, you don't get the benefit of being able to "fail out of the gate" and improve later.

AoS' Pilot needed to be as good as, if not better than, every other episode of television that Joss had ever written or co-written, and it wasn't; it was a bloated and incoherent mess that made me embarrassed for him.

Yes, he's had film script failures, but when you build your reputation on television as a master storyteller and then fail to deliver on that reputation (even just once), you've set a really bad precedent for yourself and, by extension, the series you're writing for.

First, no. Joss is good and created some of my favorite series but he certainly didn't strike gold every single time he wrote an episode.

Second, no. That's not how this works at all. I don't give a damn whether his prior reputation is trash or godly, I judge the show on its own merits and I judge the show's improvements on their own merits.

Third, this isn't really even Joss's show in the first place. He helped create the idea and wrote the pilot, but he did so on the explicit understanding that someone else would be running it long term. He hasn't been involved in years. So the idea that the show should somehow be penalized for his small involvement years ago not living up to ridiculous standards rather than being judged as a *whole* (the whole having far more to do with everyone else working on it than with Joss) is absurd.
 
If you forced me to pick just one single comic book show to continue on forever and ever, I'd probably pick Agents of Shield.

So yeah, it's my favorite.
And I'm struggling to watch it - I'm only sitting through it for completeness sake as I watch all the other Marvel stuff.

Yes, I know it's stupid to do that, but I've got this far and I'm not quitting now. I am, however, finding myself gritting my teeth going 'Jeez, how many more episodes this season...'.
 
Third, this isn't really even Joss's show in the first place. He helped create the idea and wrote the pilot, but he did so on the explicit understanding that someone else would be running it long term. He hasn't been involved in years. So the idea that the show should somehow be penalized for his small involvement years ago not living up to ridiculous standards rather than being judged as a *whole* (the whole having far more to do with everyone else working on it than with Joss) is absurd.
This is not unlike how people often bemoan J.J. Abrams for how LOST developed when he only ever wrote two episodes over the course of the whole show. He helped create the show but then immediately passed it over to Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. I guess people like a popular name to scapegoat because it makes them feel better to tear them down.

(Also, there was nothing wrong with LOST)
 
I'm another huge fan of AoS, and it's nice to know it actually does have a bigger audience than it's looked like the last few years.
The show did start out not that great, but over the first couple of season it improved massively and is now one of my favorite shows of all time.
 
Hell, even the first season can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the first season was that it had to spend the first two thirds of it in a holding pattern until The Winter Soldier was released. The last third of the season, starting with The Winter Soldier crossover, is one of the show's high points.
 
Hell, even the first season can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the first season was that it had to spend the first two thirds of it in a holding pattern until The Winter Soldier was released. The last third of the season, starting with The Winter Soldier crossover, is one of the show's high points.
While that's certainly true and hurts them with the season arc, that doesn't excuse the fact that the writing of the early episodes was so cringe-worthy. I didn't bail from the show midway through the first season because "it wasn't going anywhere" but rather it was because the show was too painful for me to watch.
 
Joss Whedon's direct involvement with this show ended with the pilot.

I know that; however, because the Pilot was trash, it put the rest of the series at a huge disadvantage. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and AoS' first impression wasn't good.

First, no. Joss is good and created some of my favorite series but he certainly didn't strike gold every single time he wrote an episode.

Give me some specific examples of Joss-written episodes that weren't good.

Second, no. That's not how this works at all. I don't give a damn whether his prior reputation is trash or godly, I judge the show on its own merits and I judge the show's improvements on their own merits.

Calling AoS' Pilot garbage - especially by Joss' usual standards - is judging the show on its own merits.
 
Meh. So people like terrible things.
The Transformers movies sold lots and lots of tickets.

Seasons 1-3 are rough, but Seasons 4-5 are fucking great.

One of the best superhero shows out there and tied with David Greenwalt & (SHIELD co-showrunner) Jeffrey Bell's Angel for my favorite Mutant Enemy series.

Re-read the OP.

The crystal-clear implication is that this data vindicates AoS as a quality show, which it isn't.

No, the critical acclaim Seasons 4-5 (particularly Season 4) received vindicates AoS as a quality show.

Entertainment Weekly "So at last we come to the end of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.’s magnificent fourth season... Splitting it into three arcs instead of two halves worked really well I think, and the way each one built into the next was pretty fantastic. Agents of Hydra in particular delivered some truly standout episodes, I thought, and Ghost Rider looked really cool when he could’ve easily come off silly or goofy."
https://ew.com/recap/marvels-agents-of-shield-season-4-finale/

8.8 IGN "With its fourth season, Marvel's Agents of SHIELD is the best it's ever been, maturing as a show and learning the right lessons from what's come before. Even better, the main characters are the best and most interesting they've ever been, and the show is leaning into some of the more fan-desired moments -- like
Philinda
, for example -- in ways that don't feel contrived. Four seasons in, the SHIELD writing and showrunning team have cracked their core characters and know the right way to push them and challenge them.

With its later time slot and three-pod season arc, Agents of SHIELD delved into more mature territory and was the better for it. The later storylines -- specifically the Framework pod -- were stronger than the "Ghost Rider" arc, but across the board Season 4 is the best season of SHIELD to date. Excellent guest stars and well-crafted supporting characters helped elevate this season above the previous three, and even though there were some elements that weren't as effective in Season 4, overall Agents of SHIELD is better than it's ever been."
https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/05/23/marvels-agents-of-shield-season-4-review

#2 on Collider's annual superhero series ranking (Behind only FX's Legion)
"This show’s still on? Yes! Amazingly, the show’s fourth season manages to blow away most of the competition, far surpassing its own past seasons by focusing on a number of tweaks that blast it into the stratosphere. The biggest change is of course the inclusion of the Ghost Rider, who works surprisingly well as an anti-hero for the team to struggle with, along with the introduction of the mythical Marvel artifact, the Darkhold. Aside from the Spirit of Vengeance and the focus on a darker theme at a later timeslot, S.H.I.E.L.D. really stepped up its game by separating its season into mini-arcs instead of focusing on one Big Bad. “Ghost Rider,” “LMDs,” and “Agents of Hydra” are all connected, but offer new antagonists, plotlines, characters, and more as the season never lets you really feel its 22 episode length. Everything just seemed to pop this go-round, and for the first time during its history, I was really rooting for a renewal. I can’t wait to see what the show manages to do next season if they stick to this formula."
http://collider.com/superhero-tv-shows-ranked-2017/

#2 on Comic Book Resources' superhero series ranking (Also behind only FX's Legion)
"In its fourth season S.H.I.E.L.D. used a new storytelling format to hit its stride and essentially reboot the show in a new, more creative direction. Though it’s still not as connected to the films as fans would like, perhaps that’s for the best, as it has no problems making its own fascinating mythology and history."
https://www.cbr.com/superhero-tv-series-ranked/

AoS' Pilot is the single worst TV script Joss Whedon has ever written, and set a very disastrous tone for the series.

Someone hasn't seen the first couple episodes of Buffy in a while.

When you're somebody like Joss Whedon who has struck gold everytime you've written an episode of television, you don't get the benefit of being able to "fail out of the gate" and improve later.

Well, except for Tim Minear's Firefly, all of the Mutant Enemy series were shit shows out of the gate until they gradually got better. The first season of Whedon's five-year run on Buffy was rough, and while Season 2's myth arc was brilliant a majority of the monster-of-the-week episodes were ...not brilliant. David Greenwalt (Seasons 1-3) & Jeffrey Bell's (Seasons 4-5) Angel was a mediocre spin-off before it gradually became one of the best spin-offs and superhero series ever made. And while Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain (Season 1) and Tara Butters & Michele Fazekas' (Season 2) Dollhouse never really became truly "good", the majority of the (handful of) episodes that are worth watching come from the latter half of the show. And almost all of those (handful of) legitimately worthwhile episodes were written by Jeff Bell's AoS co-showrunners Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon.

What I'm saying is Minear's Firefly is the only Mutant Enemy series that didn't suck out of the gate, and fuck FOX for cancelling it.
 
Regarding Buffy's first episode: It was so awful I still haven't bothered giving the show a second chance despite so many people telling me to watch it. Yeah, Joss Whedon is far from perfect including, but not limited to, his starts.
 
Give me some specific examples of Joss-written episodes that weren't good.

Buffy
Welcome to the Hellmouth (pilot, Part I)
The Harvest (pilot, Part II)

Angel
City of (pilot; co-writer/director)

Dollhouse

Echo (original unaired pilot)
Ghost (complete do-over pilot)

I'm sensing a pattern here.
 
See also: Matt Groening. The premiere eps of both Futurama and Disenchantment, written by Groening, were both "meh", but both shows quickly found their footing.
 
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Someone hasn't seen the first couple episodes of Buffy in a while.

Welcome to the Hellmouth is not a bad episode by any means. Yes, the show got significantly better going forward, but the difference between WttH and AoS' Pilot is that the latter didn't actually put anything in place for the series to get better; it just plain sucked.

Well, except for Tim Minear's Firefly, all of the Mutant Enemy series were shit shows out of the gate until they gradually got better. The first season of Whedon's five-year run on Buffy was rough, and while Season 2's myth arc was brilliant a majority of the monster-of-the-week episodes were ...not brilliant. David Greenwalt (Seasons 1-3) & Jeffrey Bell's (Seasons 4-5) Angel was a mediocre spin-off before it gradually became one of the best spin-offs and superhero series ever made. And while Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain (Season 1) and Tara Butters & Michele Fazekas' (Season 2) Dollhouse never really became truly "good", the majority of the (handful of) episodes that are worth watching come from the latter half of the show. And almost all of those (handful of) legitimately worthwhile episodes were written by Jeff Bell's AoS co-showrunners Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon.

I vehemently disagree with all of this. Yes, all of the series you mentioned got better as time progressed, but, again, the difference between them and AoS is that they had the leeway to get better. By the time Joss wrote the Pilot for AoS, he no longer had the luxury of being able to start slow and then let the show improve; he had to be 100% brilliant out of the gate because of the reputation he'd built, and AoS' Pilot was the equivalent of a world-class diver doing a bellyflop when they needed to perform a flawless dive.

Buffy
Welcome to the Hellmouth (pilot, Part I)
The Harvest (pilot, Part II)

Angel
City of (pilot; co-writer/director)

Dollhouse

Ghost (complete do-over pilot)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

If those episodes were in fact objectively "bad", you'd have a point, but the fact of the matter is that they're not objectively "bad"; in fact, they're all quite good, especially for Pilot episodes.

As noted above, the series got better as time progressed, but none of those episodes were objectively failures in and of themselves the way that AoS' Pilot was.
 
Yes, all of the series you mentioned got better as time progressed, but, again, the difference between them and AoS is that they had the leeway to get better. By the time Joss wrote the Pilot for AoS, he no longer had the luxury of being able to start slow and then let the show improve; he had to be 100% brilliant out of the gate because of the reputation he'd built, and AoS' Pilot was the equivalent of a world-class diver doing a bellyflop when they needed to perform a flawless dive.
Leeway given by whom?

ABC? Clearly they gave it long enough of a chance to recover.

The viewers? Clearly they either stuck around long enough for the show to improve or they returned based on word of mouth (like I did).

Just because you decided it didn't have the leeway to improve, that doesn't mean it didn't have that leeway or that it didn't actually improve.

And again, it bears repeating since you're still bemoaning Joss Whedon: He was not involved with the show beyond its creation and the pilot.
 
I vehemently disagree with all of this. Yes, all of the series you mentioned got better as time progressed, but, again, the difference between them and AoS is that they had the leeway to get better.

No, the difference between them is that (aside from Firefly's re-pilot The Train Job and episode airing order and Angel being shut down briefly during pre-production for the original scripts for the first few episodes being "too dark" i.e. what Angel eventually became during Seasons 2-5) The WB and FOX gave the showrunners the leeway to do whatever they wanted and the shows got better as a result.

Bell and Tancharoen & (Jed) Whedon found out shortly after being hired that the entire concept of their show was being imploded by The Winter Soldier halfway through Season 1. And it got worse from there.

"Okay, but then we're done with this Hydra shit, right?"

Feige: "Yeah, the Avengers will be defeating them."

"Thank god. Then we can come up with some fresh storyli-"

Feige: "...in the opening moments of Avengers 2, which will come out during your Season 2 finale. If Coulson and his team don't spend a majority of their time fighting these Nazis and ignore them instead the heroes of your show will look like real assholes. Won't they?"

"FUCK! *sighs* Okay, but we can still use Season 3 and what non-Hydra screentime we have during Season 2 for some fresh storyli-"

Jeph Loeb: "Actually, my boss Ike Perlmutter is really, really adamant that you spend the rest of your screentime setting up his Inhumans movie because Kevin won't, and honestly Kevin doesn't even want an Inhumans movie made at all."

*Wrath of Khan camera move* "IKE!!!!!!!!"

Cut to the Inhumans movie being shelved anyway, the Perlmutter's Inhumans TV series going over like a wet fart, and (shocker) Seasons 4-5 getting critical acclaim when Bell, Tancharoen & (Jed) Whedon finally had the leeway to do whatever they wanted.
 
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While that's certainly true and hurts them with the season arc, that doesn't excuse the fact that the writing of the early episodes was so cringe-worthy. I didn't bail from the show midway through the first season because "it wasn't going anywhere" but rather it was because the show was too painful for me to watch.
I don't disagree that the first 2/3 of the season were... rough. But I still enjoyed them for what they were at the time-- new glimpses into my beloved MCU (and the connections to the movies were probably the strongest in the first season).

Even now I can watch them and, while on one hand I appreciate how much the show has improved, on the other hand, so much of what later became important about the show and the characters were established in that first season.

Early S1 over view-

Pilot-- Hey, I liked it. Coulson was then, and still is, my favorite MCU character. While the show wasn't entirely what I was expecting, my expectations are my own problem. The smaller, more intimate story with Mike and his son was engaging to me, and I found myself hoping for his return. I liked the new characters, I liked Mike Peterson and I was intrigued by the mystery presented by the mysterious "Centipede" (which I correctly guessed to be connected to Hydra. You can't have SHIELD without Hydra, right?

084--Meh.

The Asset-- Despite some good character bits and introducing he who would eventually not turn out to be Graviton afterall, -Meh

Eye-Spy-- I liked this one, but it wasn't great. I wish that we had seen more of Akeela Amador.

Girl in the Flower Dress-- Uneven, not great, not bad. There are some things that I really liked, such as the introduction of Raina and Centipede/Hydra's recruitment and discarding of poor Chan Ho Yin (in hindsight I can see Rocket Raccoon mocking poor Chan thusly --- "Bwahahahaha! Your name is 'Scorch'?"). However, I could totally do with out most of the Skye's boyfriend subplot.

FZZT-- Despite a very powerful scene with Coulson telling the man that was about to die that he had been there and it was nothing to be afraid of-- meh.

The Hub-- I really liked this one. The team's first real interaction with big SHIELD. This was the first time that we saw more to Fitz than a vaguely nebbish nerd and realized that he had the makings of both bad-ass and hero.

The Well-- IIRC, this wasn't a popular one, but I liked it. I think mostly people were let down that the advertised cross-over with Thor The Dark World was no more than a brief opening scene. The rest of the episode, dealing with an ancient Asgardian artifact and an equally ancient Asgardian history teacher (played by Peter MacNicol) was enjoyable. The villains were a little on the weak side (Berzerker Staff enhancements notwithstanding), but the characters had really begun to gell together by this point.

Repairs-- The show's first genuine stinker (IMHO, YMMV), but we learned backstory about May that would be brought up repeatedly over the rest of the show's run and fleshed out fully in S3s "Melinda".

The Bridge/ The Magical Place-- The two-parter that explained Coulson's resurrection (The "how", if not the "why") was better than "meh", but not spectacular. It felt a tad rushed. Coulson's abduction should have lasted a few more episodes before resolution.

Seeds-- Despite the first look at SHIELD Academy and the introduction of the comics villain Blizzard-- Meh.

OK, here in the "back nine" is where the snowball really starts to roll.

T.R.A.C.K.S.-- This was a very clever episode set on a train (and features AoS's one Stan Lee cameo) and ends on the dark note of Skye getting shot in the stomach.

T.A.H.I.T.I.-- This one was a jaw-dropper. The introduction of Bill Paxton as John Garrett and the desperate search for and assault on the facility that brought Coulson back to life. The reveal of the Kree corpse being the source of the GH.325 drug was a real shocker.

Yes Men--Another really good one, marred only by the fact that it interrupted the flow of the "Search for the Clairvoyant" plotline. Featuring one of the show's only real movie crossovers, Lady Sif travels from Asgard to apprehend the villainous Lorelei.

End of the Beginning and Turn, Turn, Turn were the beginning of The Winter Soldier crossover, and from here the show never looked back. The only bump in the road for the rest of the season was the "Blackout/Coulson's ex the cellist (played by Amy Acker)" plot in "The Only Light in the Darkness", however the Ward/Skye stuff in that ep that continued the ongoing plot was very intense stuff.
 
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The OP says "it’s nice to see this highly under appreciated show get some much overdue recognition".

That is a statement of quality, albeit a subjective one, and cites the compilation of data signifying AoS as being more popular than other superhero series as validation of its quality.
You know, people have separated shoulders with less reaching than this. :lol:

When I wrote that AoS was "under appreciated", what I meant was that it hardly ever gets mentioned for it's positives. In fact, it hardly gets mentioned at all when it comes to TV superhero shows, though according to Parrot's study, that is not true. Being pointed out as the most popular of these shows is a definite positive.

Nothing I wrote had anything whatsoever to do with AoS's quality, or that popularity equals quality. That is simply the way you misinterpreted what I wrote.
 
I know that; however, because the Pilot was trash, it put the rest of the series at a huge disadvantage. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and AoS' first impression wasn't good..

Nevertheless, that was five years and four seasons ago. But we're still going to judge it entirely on its pilot?

Seems to me we have a lot more to evaluate at this point, rather than treating the pilot as the sole indicator of its success.

And, honestly, shows can overcome bad first impressions. I gave up on both X-FILES and BABYLON-5 early on, but gave them another shot when friends I trusted told me I was missing out. And, going back a ways, DARK SHADOWS didn't become a hit until Barnabas showed up, about two hundred episodes into the series. :)
 
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