True.
‘Agents of Shield’ most popular superhero show on TV
- Thread starter gblews
- Start date
True.
The cast of Firefly may have used the term "canceled" to describe the series' fate , but they have all also gone on record stating that FOX executives deliberately sabotaged the series; Joss and Tim Minear have done so as well.
And arguing whether or not Dollhouse's two 13-episode seasons were "full" or not is arguing semantics.
Either way, however, I stand by my statement that neither series was a failure.
And arguing whether or not Dollhouse's two 13-episode seasons were "full" or not is arguing semantics.
Either way, however, I stand by my statement that neither series was a failure.
There's literally no way to assess the methodology based on that. And that's typical of Parrot Analytic's demand expressions. They are opaque. They are opaque because they are proprietary, and we're never going to learn exactly how they are calculated for that reason. By they're own statements though, mere discussion of their metrics, as we're doing here, indicates demand for Parrot Analytics' work.
Oh, sure, and the opinion that you pull out of your ass is more valid than the literally billions of data points at play here. Thank God we all have Corporal Cupcake here to tell us how it really is. Corporal Cupcake knows better than the Guinness Book of World Records!
right back atchya.
Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't affect the reality of it in the slightest.
right back atchya.Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't affect the reality of it in the slightest.
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You're welcome.
I would be more interested in figures that measure actual consumption of the show. Theoretical interest in a show on top of consumption that is gleaned by a measure of online discussion is only that: theoretical. It might be useful to a studio to help determine untapped market potential for a show, but is it actually? That's the actual test for whether that interest translates into actual demand as economists understand the term "demand." What we're looking at in the "demand expression" is a combination of consumption and discussion that is impossible for us on the receiving end of the information to tease apart, because the actual formula for producing it is proprietary. The idea that the demand expression actually measures economic demand is implied but unclear.
Low ratings meant a lack of many things essential to a series succeeding--strong viewer numbers being near the top of that list, which doomed Firefly, not defensive excuses in place of admitting its failure.
When the network refused to order more episodes, once again the same issues of bad ratings / lack of interest (which speaks to its poor quality) pushed the series toward inevitable cancellation. Whedon has a number of failures no matter how much you wish to rewrite history.
Then you're living in that fantasyland called Whedon-Can-Do-No-Wrong, instead of reality, where the two series in question are officially categorized as failures, hence being cancelled so quickly.
We should draw distinction between commercial failure and artistic failure. Bad ratings do not necessarily equate to poor quality, as pretty much the entire history of TV demonstrates. I'm sure we can all cite examples of good shows failing to find an audience and poor shows succeeding more than they probably should have!
Do some research about what was going on behind-the-scenes during Firefly's production.
Stating that FOX executives deliberately sabotaged the series is not making "defensive excuses in place of admitting its failure"; it's stating the unvarnished truth.
In Firefly and Dollhouse's case, the audience was not there--both had very poor ratings which can say something about its artistic value. This was not a case like Star Trek, which struggled, but still managed 3 seasons (not to mention having more than a few scripts by some of the 20th century's best genre authors--that's not matched by the Whedon series by any stretch of the imagination), and already had Lou Scheimer wanting to adapt it into an animated series as early as 1969 while TOS was still first run on NBC. That's a more genuine case of a production being artistically strong / appealing despite its ratings issues. Firefly and Dollhouse could not merit that kind of industry interest while on air, and never had the audience support to keep it alive beyond Firefly's 14 shows or Dollhouse's 26. The point being is that despite Whedon being another member's imagined god, he was far from a consistently strong, infallible creator/writer. He had failures.
I love Firefly, it is one of my favorite science fiction TV series ever (which reminds me, I'm due for a rewatch). And Dollhouse in season two, from episode 5 until the end, is some of my favorite sci-fi arc writing it just took WAY too long to get there. But that does not change TREK_GOD_1's point... while they may have creatively been successes, from a business perspective they were failures. It does not matter that Firefly was aired out of order, or they forced him to shoot a new pilot. The production teams for both shows wanted to make more episodes, the network opted to not make more episodes because of low ratings. Frankly Joss and the network should have done a much better job up front, before a single camera rolled, in figuring out what the network wanted the show to be versus what Joss wanted the show to be. That does not take away from their creative achievement, but if we assume as a network does that the purpose of a show is to draw in enough eyeballs to be able to sell advertising, both shows failed at that.
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In FIREFLY's defense, it may have ended up as more of a cult favorite than a hit, but the fact that we're still getting books, comics, and merchandise fifteen years later, and that we're still talking about the show, suggest that it clearly found a passionate following, which is more than most one-season wonders can claim. That sort of longevity is no small thing. We should all be so lucky as to create something that still lives on in the hearts of many, many fans.
Don't see much in the way of SURFACE or FAST-FORWARD fandom these days.
Don't see much in the way of SURFACE or FAST-FORWARD fandom these days.
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The reluctance to actually report detail is very frustrating. As near as I can make out, Parrot wants to claim it counts, well, internet chatter in various forms, to determine real popularity. But it seems to me in the nature of things a one shot movie or a binge streaming series is going to be discussed mostly when it is released, while a series will be discussed episode by episode. Plus, a long running series will have years more novelty to discuss. Until we know how Parrot addresses these issues, we should just think of it as somebody trying to sell a rating service, not necessarily a reliable source of any kind.
The popularity of a TV series as one measure of quality has to consider whether the series never got a wide viewing, or whether it had an audience, then lost it. The first can be a marketing/scheduling failure. The second is probably a creative failure.
I've found most of Agents of SHIELD to be unwatchable. The fundamental issue is that SHIELD=HYDRA, as per Winter Soldier. That I could get behind. The series' insistence on rehabbing this nasty outfit was lethal. That's why the only thing that worked for me was the Agents of HYDRA sequence, when at long last the villainy of (most of) the characters was entirely appropriate. It's the Burn Notice problem, where the hero was a fool for wanting to go back to his evil job as a murderous "spy" instead of actually helping people.
Since Firefly somehow got into here, trying to check its ratings on wikipedia, it says there are a lot of libertarians who love Firefly. Cult status for the wrong reasons is a minus, not a tribute to artistic achievement.
The popularity of a TV series as one measure of quality has to consider whether the series never got a wide viewing, or whether it had an audience, then lost it. The first can be a marketing/scheduling failure. The second is probably a creative failure.
I've found most of Agents of SHIELD to be unwatchable. The fundamental issue is that SHIELD=HYDRA, as per Winter Soldier. That I could get behind. The series' insistence on rehabbing this nasty outfit was lethal. That's why the only thing that worked for me was the Agents of HYDRA sequence, when at long last the villainy of (most of) the characters was entirely appropriate. It's the Burn Notice problem, where the hero was a fool for wanting to go back to his evil job as a murderous "spy" instead of actually helping people.
Since Firefly somehow got into here, trying to check its ratings on wikipedia, it says there are a lot of libertarians who love Firefly. Cult status for the wrong reasons is a minus, not a tribute to artistic achievement.
Hmm, so do you also believe that "high" ratings indicate an abundance of things essential to a series' "success"? Sounds like you may be equating popularity (or lack of popularity) to quality,
In this digital era, dominated by social media, viral video, 24 hour media, that there are still people who apparently think sticking with 1950's, 1960's methods of tracking a show's actual popularity is amazing to me.
I spent years on the biggest Firefly forum there was and have been to actual Firefly conventions. Libertarianism is not the core of Firefly's fandom. Hell, I could count the number of serious libertarians I met there on one hand, and even then pretty much all of them where honestly compassionate, thoughtful people who were not at all in keeping with the politically rabid image that people have of libertarians, nor were they attracted to the show just for political reasons.
Really the only one I ever saw that was at all objectionable was Adam Baldwin himself (who was arguably more trolling than anything else).
History is always relevant. Rejection of it in order to isolate and/or rate something new is based on agenda, not truth. And in the case of TV series, numbers matter; if a show barely lasted a single season, or limped over into an additional, abbreviated season before its cancellation, that's a problem that cannot be separated from the idea of and conversation about quality issues of the show.