Double standard?

[TREK_GOD_1]

You say that Nimoy wasn't a saint but all the supporting cast (in their biographies) and Shatner himself say he was generally a nice guy and most say Shatner was not. Is everyone mistaken? Is Shatner the nice guy and Nimoy the evil one? Sure Nimoy did some maneuvering and cashing in on Spock's fame but I never heard he did it to anyone else's detriment.

This is what I'm talking about; Nimoy was just as aggressive in working for his interests on TOS as Shatner, especially after he was aware of the fan response. Regarding his actions harming anyone else, it matters not if it was intentional as it had the same results; in competing with Shatner, seeking more screen time, line counting, etc., it would have the same allegedly negative effect on the "B Team" players as anything Shatner was doing, yet the bitter "B Team" all lay it on Shatner, which is unfair. Further, Shatner was the star of the show (and who could argue against his being one of the reasons for the success of the second pilot that--ultimately--put food on all of their tables?), and aside from Nimoy in season one, then adding Kelley for the remainder of the series, no one ever promised the others that they were going to be elevated to a status anywhere near the stars of the series.

Again, Takei took the early 70s convention responses to mean he was on the level of Shatner, or deserved as much screen time / development, when the nature of the business placed recurring players in a box of character restriction, doing pretty much the same thing every week. Just look at characters such as Larabee from Get Smart, Don West or Judy Robinson from Lost in Space, Chief O'Hara from Batman, Mike Axford from The Green Hornet, Gladys Kravitz from Bewitched, and on and on. That set of characters were where Takei's comparisons should have pointed, as they served the same purpose of their respective series as he did on Star Trek. In other words, Shatner did not direct or seal his fate as Sulu like The Grand Puppet Master.

 

[Tenacity]

... because he wasn't as good as Kelley ...

or as white as kelley?

which took more of takei's maybe dialog? shatner, or the unanticipated rain in georgia during the filming of the green berets?

 

[Commishsleer]

This is what I'm talking about; Nimoy was just as aggressive in working for his interests on TOS as Shatner, especially after he was aware of the fan response. Regarding his actions harming anyone else, it matters not if it was intentional as it had the same results; in competing with Shatner, seeking more screen time, line counting, etc., it would have the same allegedly negative effect on the "B Team" players as anything Shatner was doing, yet the bitter "B Team" all lay it on Shatner, which is unfair. Further, Shatner was the star of the show (and who could argue against his being one of the reasons for the success of the second pilot that--ultimately--put food on all of their tables?), and aside from Nimoy in season one, then adding Kelley for the remainder of the series, no one ever promised the others that they were going to be elevated to a status anywhere near the stars of the series.

Again, Takei took the early 70s convention responses to mean he was on the level of Shatner, or deserved as much screen time / development, when the nature of the business placed recurring players in a box of character restriction, doing pretty much the same thing every week. Just look at characters such as Larabee from Get Smart, Don West or Judy Robinson from Lost in Space, Chief O'Hara from Batman, Mike Axford from The Green Hornet, Gladys Kravitz from Bewitched, and on and on. That set of characters were where Takei's comparisons should have pointed, as they served the same purpose of their respective series as he did on Star Trek. In other words, Shatner did not direct or seal his fate as Sulu like The Grand Puppet Master.

Have you read what the actor playing Don West said about line stealing in "Lost in Space". ?
Its easy to dismiss it if your not actually the actor losing lines and popularity.

Anyway I agree with most people that the rain and Spock's popularity had more to do with anything that Shatner probably did (Spock was worked into "All our Yesterdays" instead of Sulu).
The real gripe that the 'B' actors had was that Shatner was so rude and arrogant. If he just stole lines but treated them decently there wouldn't be any feud. And Shatner's "crimes" of not answering phone calls or not turning up for group get - togethers, whatever aren't that serious but just mean that he was a bit of a jerk - not the devil but not a saint either.

I have a suspicion that Takei just exaggerates the feud to get publicity and interest in him turning up to conventions to "complain" about Shatner.

 

[Longinus]

The real gripe that the 'B' actors had was that Shatner was so rude and arrogant. If he just stole lines but treated them decently there wouldn't be any feud. And Shatner's "crimes" of not answering phone calls or not turning up for group get - togethers, whatever aren't that serious but just mean that he was a bit of a jerk - not the devil but not a saint either.

And even if all that were true Takei still holding a grudge over it after all these decades just comes across as incredibly petty.

 

[mos6507]

In fairness, I've always heard that, as a convention guest, Takei was the most talented and fan-friendly performer that TOS had going. And I will say that, as an on screen actor, he was NOT the least talented of the supporting cast.

Speaking as someone who, as a kid, saw him at a con in the 80s, I would concur with that. Trek fandom at the time fed off of the sense of direct connection with the fans. This elevated the sense of importance of these people way beyond what was shown on the screen. And believe me, the fans were not thinking cynically about how these actors' egos were getting overinflated. That's why Shat's Get a Life skit stung so much, because it exposed a secret layer of contempt and disrespect.

[For the record, Shatner and Nimoy made very few convention appearances when they were doing the movies, at least in the Northeast where I grew up. This gave me the sense that they thought themselves too good to mingle with the rabble.]

You've gotta remember that even if George was mostly a bunch of stock footage of him turning his head and looking concerned in TOS, to fans of that era, he was a family fixture. Countless hours of our days were consumed with seeing his face in TOS reruns. It's that familiarity that gave him and his character that sense of import.

Today with so many entertainment choices at our fingertips, entertainment dirty laundry out in the open, and cons so obviously mercenary, I don't think fandom can ever be quite so sentimental anymore.

 

[Commishsleer]

And even if all that were true Takei still holding a grudge over it after all these decades just comes across as incredibly petty.

Doohan has a bit to say about his interactions with Shatner during the movies. I'm presuming Shatner was as disrespectful to Takei as he was to Doohan..
Doohan for example thought the hitting on the head scene in STV was demeaning to Scotty and Shatner was having a laugh at his expense. I'm prepared to give Shatner the benefit of the doubt there and just call him a bad writer but Doohan After years of putting up with (perceived perhaps) slights didn't like it.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

For the record, Shatner and Nimoy made very few convention appearances when they were doing the movies, at least in the Northeast where I grew up. This gave me the sense that they thought themselves too good to mingle with the rabble.

I don't think it was snobbery that kept Bill and Leonard off the convention circuit after the early 1970s. They were just too busy with real (better-paying) jobs. And later they were too wealthy.

Somewhere, I read Nimoy being quoted as advising another Trek actor (probably a spinoff actor) not to do conventions, because it's a miserable experience and the small paychecks are not worth it. And for Nimoy, that was true. But for a Walter Koenig, or more so a Grace Lee Whitney, raking in say $2000 for a weekend was well worth the travel and hassle involved. GLW was probably literally putting groceries on the table, at a time when a few thousand dollars would mean nothing to Leonard Nimoy.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Have you read what the actor playing Don West said about line stealing in "Lost in Space". ?
Its easy to dismiss it if your not actually the actor losing lines and popularity.

Mark Goddard's complaints fell on the purposely deaf ears of Irwin Allen, as he was concerned with the stars and what worked. Early in the 1st season of Lost in Space, the decision to elevate Jonathan Harris beyond the sinister foreign agent/villain made the series popular. Teaming Harris with Billy Mumy and the Robot sent the series over the top in a way it would not have if characters like Don West were prominent players. Goddard must have learned to accept Allen's decisions, since he remained with the series for each of its 3 seasons--while the permanent shift to Dr. Smith/Will Robinson/Robot hi-jinks rolled on.

Anyway I agree with most people that the rain and Spock's popularity had more to do with anything that Shatner probably did (Spock was worked into "All our Yesterdays" instead of Sulu).
The real gripe that the 'B' actors had was that Shatner was so rude and arrogant. If he just stole lines but treated them decently there wouldn't be any feud. And Shatner's "crimes" of not answering phone calls or not turning up for group get - togethers, whatever aren't that serious but just mean that he was a bit of a jerk - not the devil but not a saint either.

Shatner had his own life, children to support and a career to manage, so its not as if he had as much free time as the "B Team" to just hang out and shoot the breeze. The same applies to Nimoy in his time on Mission: Impossible, his stage performances, starting his directing career back in 1973, etc. Its far too easy for the B Team to complain when they had time to invest in fantasy memories of mistreatment.

I have a suspicion that Takei just exaggerates the feud to get publicity and interest in him turning up to conventions to "complain" about Shatner.

Which makes him an unethical opportunist in seeking attention at another's expense.

I don't think it was snobbery that kept Bill and Leonard off the convention circuit after the early 1970s. They were just too busy with real (better-paying) jobs. And later they were too wealthy.

Sounds reasonable.

Somewhere, I read Nimoy being quoted as advising another Trek actor (probably a spinoff actor) not to do conventions, because it's a miserable experience and the small paychecks are not worth it. And for Nimoy, that was true. But for a Walter Koenig, or more so a Grace Lee Whitney, raking in say $2000 for a weekend was well worth the travel and hassle involved. GLW was probably literally putting groceries on the table, at a time when a few thousand dollars would mean nothing to Leonard Nimoy.

Interesting. So that would mean Nimoy was just as self-interested as anyone else would be in his position, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Noname Given]

or as white as kelley?

which took more of takei's maybe dialog? shatner, or the unanticipated rain in georgia during the filming of the green berets?

Considering George Takei got a rather large supporting role in John Wayne's "The Green Barets" (which was why he was written out of some second season TOS eps. as filming of that picture ran over schedule) - sorry, but I don't think Mr. Takei's argument of "William Shatner's actions on Star trek hurt my career.." hold much water.

Unlike Star Trek, I think more casting agents saw him in that film, and if he ever mentioned 'Star Trek' at auditions in the late 1960ies, the response was most likely: "What? Is that a TV show or something?"

 

[johnnybear]

Don West in Lost in Space was supposed to be one of the stars of the show and he was but Dr.Smith became the actual star of the series and most of the scripts were written around him, Will and the Robot! Guy Williams was supposed to be the main star but ended up missing from various shows while Smith and the Robot were the only two characters in every episode! That's a bit like Shatner being told he was the star of the show and Scotty becoming the focus of the fans or maybe Spock? But we'd better not go there just in case!!!
JB

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't understand the complaints about the IDIC symbol being used in an episode. I have read interviews with Gene and Majel about the early days of Lincoln Enterprises, and have seen original catalogues on Lincoln merchandise. They received a lot of mail requesting to buy "Star Trek" costume jewellery, not just a Starfleet insignia replica or miniature silver Enterprise (both of which they already had on offer), but actual jewellery "as seen on the show" that didn't scream "STAR TREK". The IDIC symbol is nicely incorporated into a third season script and became popular with Trek fans who could wear it at conventions but also in their daily lives.

How is that so terrible?

 

[marlboro]

God, I miss the pre internet days when I didn't know everyone was horrible. : (

 

[J.T.B.]

The IDIC symbol is nicely incorporated into a third season script and became popular with Trek fans who could wear it at conventions but also in their daily lives.

How is that so terrible?

I wouldn't say it is nicely incorporated. The wardrobe item appears out of nowhere, it gets a close-up, there are a couple of lines to draw attention to it (including a strange word, "idick?"), and then it appears again later, groovy medallion-style. None of which has anything at all to do with the plot. It's rather obviously tacked on for some other reason.

GR was using his position to get network air time and well-known actors to promote a product for his personal profit at no cost to him. It's not the crime of the century, but it's not exactly the ethical high ground, either.

 

[1001001]

GR was using his position to get network air time and well-known actors to promote a product for his personal profit at no cost to him.

So...like airing Star Trek?

 

[J.T.B.]

So...like airing Star Trek?

Roddenberry did not own the show nor the network on which it aired, so no, not like that.

 

[1001001]

Roddenberry did not own the show nor the network on which it aired, so no, not like that.

It's all a product, explicitly made to make money.

All of it.

NBC did not air it out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[J.T.B.]

It's all a product, explicitly made to make money.

All of it.

NBC did not air it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Obviously. But Roddenberry had been paid, NBC did not owe him free time on their network to promote his side business. This was not a normal thing, that's why people objected at the time and we're still talking about it 50 years later.

 

[Kor]

I don't understand the complaints about the IDIC symbol being used in an episode. I have read interviews with Gene and Majel about the early days of Lincoln Enterprises, and have seen original catalogues on Lincoln merchandise. They received a lot of mail requesting to buy "Star Trek" costume jewellery, not just a Starfleet insignia replica or miniature silver Enterprise (both of which they already had on offer), but actual jewellery "as seen on the show" that didn't scream "STAR TREK". The IDIC symbol is nicely incorporated into a third season script and became popular with Trek fans who could wear it at conventions but also in their daily lives.

How is that so terrible?

To me, there just never seemed to be very much in the depiction of Vulcan culture itself to indicate that they truly appreciated diversity. Maybe Vulcan merchants came up with it to appeal to human sensibilities.

Kor

 

[Vger23]

God, I miss the pre internet days when I didn't know everyone was horrible. : (

I don't think people are horrible (well, some are I suppose). Most are just "people"...flawed and self centered like the rest of humanity. I think it gets worse with iconic "hero actors" because they play such a paragon of virtue on TV, and the fan expectations are off-the-charts...and there is deep disappointment when we find out they are flawed people who make mistakes and phuck up...just like the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[Nerys Myk]

To me, there just never seemed to be very much in the depiction of Vulcan culture itself to indicate that they truly appreciated diversity. Maybe Vulcan merchants came up with it to appeal to human sensibilities.

Kor

Gene probably figured he could get a few bucks from hippies and kids if if tossed in words like "diversity".