Is Voyager Heavily Underrated?

[Grendelsbayne]

I can't really take the Janeway is a Dictator idea seriously at all. She commanded the ship, as someone had to, and she was by far the most qualified and acceptable to do. She didn't rule the ship with an iron fist. Repeatedly, she gave people the opportunity to leave if they wished. Everyone stayed (including the Maquis), knowing that they were staying on a ship with a captain in charge, not a city (which, really, didn't Voyager have like 400 people? That's not even a village) with a civilian government. The fact that she at times made questionable or bad decisions doesn't make her a dictator - the decisions were still hers to make, even if she screwed them up, in your opinion.

 

[RassDavadCaras]

You just said exactly what I was trying to say, I could not agree more. Good to see another Janeway fan.

I can't really take the Janeway is a Dictator idea seriously at all. She commanded the ship, as someone had to, and she was by far the most qualified and acceptable to do. She didn't rule the ship with an iron fist. Repeatedly, she gave people the opportunity to leave if they wished. Everyone stayed (including the Maquis), knowing that they were staying on a ship with a captain in charge, not a city (which, really, didn't Voyager have like 400 people? That's not even a village) with a civilian government. The fact that she at times made questionable or bad decisions doesn't make her a dictator - the decisions were still hers to make, even if she screwed them up, in your opinion.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Seems easier than to mettre Paris en bouteille.

Ah celle-là, j''avais déjà utlisé cette subtilité/plaisanterie dans un précédent message, en l'accompagnant d'une photo de Tom Paris! Mais bon, mieux vaut que ce soit dans une bouteille que dans la poche, n'est-ce-pas?!

(Ah, I've already used this subtlety/joke in an old post, accompanied by a picture of Tom Paris! But well, it had better be in a bottle than in the pocket, hadn't it?! )

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I can't really take the Janeway is a Dictator idea seriously at all. She commanded the ship, as someone had to, and she was by far the most qualified and acceptable to do. She didn't rule the ship with an iron fist. Repeatedly, she gave people the opportunity to leave if they wished. Everyone stayed (including the Maquis), knowing that they were staying on a ship with a captain in charge, not a city (which, really, didn't Voyager have like 400 people? That's not even a village) with a civilian government. The fact that she at times made questionable or bad decisions doesn't make her a dictator - the decisions were still hers to make, even if she screwed them up, in your opinion.

I'm totally agree with you on that, grendlsbayne. Everyone aborad Voyager (including the Maquis rebels, who would have surely been seriously hurt or worst, died after the the Val Jean, was badly damaged by a Cardassian warship -> Voyager was a lifeline for each of them & secondarely their new living conditions were more confortable than on the Val Jean or on an unknown planet with nothing around! -> with Capt. Benjamin Sisko, it would have been another story and it would have been much less enjoyable for them, believe me! ) quickly realized that Captain Janeway was the most appropriate invidual to lead them through the journey and bring them back to Earth (the best evidence was when the crew was offered to leave in 37', all stayed without any hesitation!) and that's what she did after 7 years (with the help of her older döppelhanger and a another stab to the Prime Directive!). Alright, she made some errors in judgment & sometimes, her actions scared some of her senior crew but let's not forget that she made many concessions / sacrifices : personal, ideological and conscience) too in order to keep safe her crew. The French have a saying that says, it is only those who do nothing and/or do not attempt nothing who can then claim to be perfect!



. was not perfectShe was . what person the best Totally agreewellaround 150 officers at the end of The Caretaker but about 130 at the end of Endgame

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Oops, I have tried to correct the number of officers aboard Voyager but my sentence was lost at the very very end of my last post so, this is:

I think that the number was around 150 officers in total at the end of The Caretaker (between those who were killed and those who replace them (Maquis rebels) but about 130 at the end of Endgame (attacks, crashes, deseases). The only officer's death which disturbed me was the one who was killed by Suder. I wonder how Janeway explained in her report to Starfleet and to his family... . I had to do this dirty work once and believe me, families want to know all details even the most sordid.

 

[jaime]

I'm totally agree with you on that, grendlsbayne. Everyone aborad Voyager (including the Maquis rebels, who would have surely been seriously hurt or worst, died after the the Val Jean, was badly damaged by a Cardassian warship -> Voyager was a lifeline for each of them & secondarely their new living conditions were more confortable than on the Val Jean or on an unknown planet with nothing around! -> with Capt. Benjamin Sisko, it would have been another story and it would have been much less enjoyable for them, believe me! ) quickly realized that Captain Janeway was the most appropriate invidual to lead them through the journey and bring them back to Earth (the best evidence was when the crew was offered to leave in 37', all stayed without any hesitation!) and that's what she did after 7 years (with the help of her older döppelhanger and a another stab to the Prime Directive!). Alright, she made some errors in judgment & sometimes, her actions scared some of her senior crew but let's not forget that she made many concessions / sacrifices : personal, ideological and conscience) too in order to keep safe her crew. The French have a saying that says, it is only those who do nothing and/or do not attempt nothing who can then claim to be perfect!



. was not perfectShe was . what person the best Totally agreewellaround 150 officers at the end of The Caretaker but about 130 at the end of Endgame

Yup. Janeway is essentially an elected leader, by virtue of there being occasions where either the crew could have left, taken over, or simply ditched her. That they didn’t, and that it was rarely if ever motivated by fear, says it’s not how it’s being painted. (Also, starfleet is not a military ;p)
Another way of looking at it is that Chakotay is the civilian leader, and in his role as first officer can temper Janeway’s decision. They never used the ‘Captain is unfit for command’ story, though would the EMH have that leaway? There are certainly enough senior staff who could have staged the equivalent of a coup, but none of them did. It was only considered early season one, and there Chakotay, who is the lynchpin in the power dynamics, sided with keeping Janeway.
Not a dictatorship, just a situation adhered to by necessity.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I can't really take the Janeway is a Dictator idea seriously at all. She commanded the ship, as someone had to, and she was by far the most qualified and acceptable to do. She didn't rule the ship with an iron fist. Repeatedly, she gave people the opportunity to leave if they wished.

I don't want to wade more into the question of what Janeway is like, but "my way or the highway" is an excellent characterization of autocratic leadership.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I don't want to wade more into the question of what Janeway is like, but "my way or the highway" is an excellent characterization of autocratic leadership.

It's not 'my way or the high way' when the leader has the clear approval of the group at large. That's 'our way or the high way', which is generally the standard operating procedure of human groups. Based on what I've seen of Voyager, I just don't see it as at all credible to say that if the crew no longer agreed with Janeway's methods or priorities overall (not just disagreeing with a single decision) that they would at all be afraid to make clear to her that they won't support her if she maintains that path. And if she refused and they said, 'Ok, Chakotay's turn now', I highly doubt she would ever attempt to force her continued captaincy on anyone.

Is she an 'autocratic leader' in the sense that her decisions are made by her and do not necessarily require input from her subordinates? Yes, she is. Because every ship captain is. Even Picard. What she isn't is some power-mad dictator who refuses to ever listen to anyone or allow anyone to choose their own path.

They all have the choice to leave, if they want. They also all have the option to band together and say no if they as a group vehemently disagree with her. But if only one person (or a small number) disagrees on that level and refuses to let it go, then what other option is there than 'the highway'?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It's not 'my way or the high way' when the leader has the clear approval of the group at large. That's 'our way or the high way', which is generally the standard operating procedure of human groups. Based on what I've seen of Voyager, I just don't see it as at all credible to say that if the crew no longer agreed with Janeway's methods or priorities overall (not just disagreeing with a single decision) that they would at all be afraid to make clear to her that they won't support her if she maintains that path. And if she refused and they said, 'Ok, Chakotay's turn now', I highly doubt she would ever attempt to force her continued captaincy on anyone.

Is she an 'autocratic leader' in the sense that her decisions are made by her and do not necessarily require input from her subordinates? Yes, she is. Because every ship captain is. Even Picard. What she isn't is some power-mad dictator who refuses to ever listen to anyone or allow anyone to choose their own path.

They all have the choice to leave, if they want. They also all have the option to band together and say no if they as a group vehemently disagree with her. But if only one person (or a small number) disagrees on that level and refuses to let it go, then what other option is there than 'the highway'?

I'm not going to argue Janeway's character any more but you made it a point that she gave people to option to leave. That is an autocratic leader. Look it up.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'm not going to argue Janeway's character any more but you made it a point that she gave people to option to leave. That is an autocratic leader. Look it up.

That is a Starship Captain. Look it up.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That is a Starship Captain. Look it up.

I've looked up many things. All branches of the US Military defined command and leadership as different things. The first is the legal abilities and responsibilities of being in charge. The second is the qualities that it takes to get men and women to achieve. As the US Army puts it, “leadership the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation while operating to accomplish the mission and improve the organization." Suffice it to say that what makes one fit for command is the ability to lead. That is a principle that is emphasized in many TOS episodes--many episodes where the bad commodore decided to take control, for instance. In all those episodes, Kirk was able to maintain command because he exuded good leadership, expressed through the trust he earned with the crew.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I've looked up many things. All branches of the US Military defined command and leadership as different things. The first is the legal abilities and responsibilities of being in charge. The second is the qualities that it takes to get men and women to achieve. As the US Army puts it, “leadership the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation while operating to accomplish the mission and improve the organization." Suffice it to say that what makes one fit for command is the ability to lead. That is a principle that is emphasized in many TOS episodes--many episodes where the bad commodore decided to take control, for instance. In all those episodes, Kirk was able to maintain command because he exuded good leadership, expressed through the trust he earned with the crew.

Which is exactly what has been said about Janeway. The point about her giving people the opportunity to leave is primarily relevant in the fact that they ALL *CHOSE* not to. Because they trusted her and her leadership. In other words, her Captaincy has the full support of the entire crew and cannot fairly be described as a petty dictatorship where Janeway does whatever she wants because she can.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Which is exactly what has been said about Janeway. The point about her giving people the opportunity to leave is primarily relevant in the fact that they ALL *CHOSE* not to. Because they trusted her and her leadership. In other words, her Captaincy has the full support of the entire crew and cannot fairly be described as a petty dictatorship where Janeway does whatever she wants because she can.

As I already wrote, I'm not going to argue Janeway. You can look upthread at what I think about how the realities of the time distorted her character. Telling people they can leave in a situation where they would be alone, far from home, exposed, vulnerable is not really a choice.

 

[HugeLobes]

Isn't it funny how this thread ended up highlighting problems with Voyager?

 

[RassDavadCaras]

You mean problems with fans who disagree? If anything it has pointed out issues with the Federation as everything she did they would have approved and any other captain would have done the same. It is such a shame that her command style has to be seen as a negative.

 

[LJones41]

You mean problems with fans who disagree? If anything it has pointed out issues with the Federation as everything she did they would have approved and any other captain would have done the same. It is such a shame that her command style has to be seen as a negative.

Janeway is a woman and the show's leading character. I'm not that surprised.

Is "Voyager" heavily underrated? Yes. Definitely. I'm not claiming that it's the best Trek show. I don't think there is a "best" Treks show. I had ignored this show for four seasons until my sister had convinced me to watch it. And I truly regret that I never watched it from the beginning, because regardless of flaws or virtues, it became a big favorite with me.

I don't think Ben Sisko was ever dumped on like Kathryn Janeway. I think he was simply ignored by fans, in compare to DS9's other characters.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

As I already wrote, I'm not going to argue Janeway. You can look upthread at what I think about how the realities of the time distorted her character. Telling people they can leave in a situation where they would be alone, far from home, exposed, vulnerable is not really a choice.

They wouldn't have been alone, exposed or vulnerable. There were real options to make their choice to stay honestly meaningful.

 

[Farscape One]

If I might chime in regarding Janeway...

I agree that there is a difference in her from the first few seasons and afterward. I think the brief alliance with the Borg was the turning point.

Before that, and Kes' departure and her gift, Voyager didn't make any major jumps home. Plus, Janeway was a new captain. I think there were good and bad changes.

The good...
I think she gained much more confidence in her abilities as captain. I think we can safely say that if Janeway didn't allow Kes and Neelix to stay onboard after the Ocampa homeworld, that jump would never have happened. Kes and her were close, and her humanity helped keep the crew's welfare in Kes' mind when she gave them that gift. Kes was good natured and might still have done that, but in the end, it was Janeway's decision at the start, which she followed her gut and humanity that made it such an easy decision for Kes.

The bad...
She could be easily seen as more dictatorial when you compare her between those seasons. I think once she got that confidence, people can easily confuse that with a power trip when a woman is in charge.

Plus, when Chakotay was against the Borg alliance, she concluded she was alone, after all. You can see the disappointment and sadness in her face there. At that point, she had to be a bit more assertive with her decision making.

One important point I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that I noted between the seasons, and I think is also directly proportional to how Janeway comes across. Before the Borg encounter, Voyager was a match or better, overall, than pretty much every race they came across. Once they made it past Borg space, their overall technological superiority was ground to a halt, and they, more often than not, found themselves on the weaker end of situations. She had the luxury in those first few seasons to be more thoughtful and nice. When faced with a region of space where they were at a disadvantage, she would have to show more teeth to at least make everyone think twice about going after her crew.

 

[LJones41]

If I might chime in regarding Janeway...

I agree that there is a difference in her from the first few seasons and afterward. I think the brief alliance with the Borg was the turning point.

I think there were three turning points for Janeway - when Seska and the Kazons took control of the ship; the Borg alliance; and Voyager's encounter with the Equinox.

 

[Farscape One]

All three were major events for the ship, crew, and her, but what happened with the Equinox... she took that too personally, and I think it cast her in a bad light. A lot of people likely use that situation as the go to example for her 'dictatorship'. Honestly, it certainly looks that way, and Chakotay was right to object as much as he did. My biggest gripe with that was that it was basically forgotten right after... that kind of trust broken in such a way, BOTH of them needed some healing time, and it should have shown. Even if it was just a few scenes in the next episode and be done with, at least it wouldn't have felt dropped.