Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[jaime]

But Han was much less so "sacrificing for the greater good" than Luke. Han went to rescue his son, at the behest of Leia. He might've had a hunch it might not end well, but I don't think he though "well, if I get slaughtered, it will provide some motivation for this strange Force girl." I also think Han's mentorship had its limits- the Force Awakens Han is also one who murders people he owes money to. I'm not sure how much more he could have taught Rey.

Whereas Luke freely accepted his death as a means to save the Resistance, inspire the moppets, and pull off the galaxy's greatest Force trick since the Miracle at Farpoint by the Trandoshan Biff the Younger.

I guess they could've spent more time acknowledging Han's death at the end of Force Awakens, but I think the characters have the pretty good excuse of being hunted guerrilla fighters in the middle of a war. The Vader pyre, Jinn funeral, and Amidala funeral are all carried out by characters who have the benefit of not being under siege.

The Resistance initially aren’t gueurilla fighters. They are a government black ops and mercenary team. (The confused set up never goes away. Bit of a fumble but easily glossed.)
Han goes down to that bridge for no one but Ben. Not because Leia told him. He knows he has a good chance of not coming back. But that is inside the story.
Outside the story, his death is there to fulfil the things I describe before. Han is the Obi Wan of episode VII. Hence his ‘it’s all true’ speech. Even his killing of the gangster smugglers is like Obi’s moment Mos Eisley. One last flash of the old ...extended in Hans case through the Cantina battle, some fancy flying, and planting bombs in a base. It’s like a condensed greatest hits.
I think the pacing is off largely through the choices made in the second film, rather than the first. It’s not the affront some people make out, elsewhere, but it does land some of the audience in having to hope JJ does better.

I think the next trilogy is gonna be an interesting thing...with no OT components to pull on (they will run out of characters to break and kill) I wonder how it will fare.

 

[jaime]

The everyone could be a hero idea was one of the few novel ideas that I liked. Most of the other "twists" didn't work for me outside of the thrill-factor of "I can't believe they just did X". After that thrill wears off you realize the film just sacrificed coherence in the process.

Everyone could be a hero was already there....smugglers, farmers, repair droids, translator droids, slaves....yes they gave the skywalker family some Jedi power, but fundamentally, with the exception of Leia and Padme, none of the ‘heroes’ came from heroic backgrounds. But then, that’s just another kind of myth reflection. Arthur pulled a sword from a stone and stopped being Wart. Cinderella went to the ball and became a Princess.
Star Wars has never been dynastic anyway, not least as there’s only about sixty years or so covered. No time for a Dynasty.
What we get is ‘Force wielding orphan workers are like buses, there’ll be another one along in a minute.’

 

[jaime]

Yeah, because that thin description is exactly the movie.

*goes in search of the eye roll emoji*

Does it not describe the broad strokes?

 

[Kibbin]

It isn't whether they fail. It is how they respond to failure. That's the more interesting development for characters for me.

So seeing the response of your hero to failure be, go and sit on a rock and drink space cow juice for ten years while the galaxy goes to hell in a hand basket might not be enjoyable to everyone?

 

[mos6507]

Everyone could be a hero was already there....

...until midichlorians.

 

[jaime]

...until midichlorians.

I think even then...it wasn’t that only Anakin had them, it’s just that he failed his breathalyser test worse than Yoda. Oh. And ‘there was no father’. He was still a nobody on a back water planet, no different to broomstick kid.

 

[mos6507]

I think even then...it wasn’t that only Anakin had them, it’s just that he failed his breathalyser test worse than Yoda. Oh. And ‘there was no father’. He was still a nobody on a back water planet, no different to broomstick kid.

I can see the hamster-wheel turning in your head to rationalize this. Most disagree with you. The element of special-birth is part of the mono-myth. Having that special-birth hidden to the point where the chosen one seems like an ordinary person is also part of it (and for both genders, think Briar Rose = Princess Aurora).

The problem isn't special birth per se but the emphasis on it. In A New Hope, Han's spiritual conversion is key to saving the day. Without that, Luke gets shot down by Vader. So everyone has an integral role to play. In the OT, the force is not the only source of power. Much of the Empire's power is secular in nature, and the resistance is also secular (like the Ewoks).

In the prequels, it feels more like a caste system in which if you're not a Jedi you're sort of a lesser being.

 

[jaime]

I can see the hamster-wheel turning in your head to rationalize this. Most disagree with you. The element of special-birth is part of the mono-myth. Having that special-birth hidden to the point where the chosen one seems like an ordinary person is also part of it (and for both genders, think Briar Rose = Princess Aurora).

The problem isn't special birth per se but the emphasis on it. In A New Hope, Han's spiritual conversion is key to saving the day. Without that, Luke gets shot down by Vader. So everyone has an integral role to play. In the OT, the force is not the only source of power. Much of the Empire's power is secular in nature, and the resistance is also secular (like the Ewoks).

In the prequels, it feels more like a caste system in which if you're not a Jedi you're sort of a lesser being.

I wouldn’t say lesser being, but yes, there is more of a caste thing going on.
Thing is, I don’t think TLJ does away with that so much as it tries to go on about it. If anything it tries to create an idea that it’s a dynasty thing going on, whole cloth for Ren to harp on about, when clearly there’s nothing of the sort happening. Two generations of Skywalkers being right hand people to the people in charge does not a Dynasty make, especially when there’s no nepotism involved.
And even Luke was a nobody till the, A’s you rightly say, chosen one narrative kicks in. But then, Rey is a neat little chosen one too. It’s not been remotely subverted. She’s generally more Anakin than Luke anyway. *shrug*

 

[fireproof78]

So seeing the response of your hero to failure be, go and sit on a rock and drink space cow juice for ten years while the galaxy goes to hell in a hand basket might not be enjoyable to everyone?

If that was the only thing that happened in the movie then I would agree. But, that's not the only thing that happens is my larger point.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Does it not describe the broad strokes?

No. It’s missing characters, themes. It was a description designed to be reductive.

 

[jaime]

No. It’s missing characters, themes. It was a description designed to be reductive.

It was a description designed to show similarities that are indeed there and shared between two films. One of which is incredibly specific. The others slightly broader. I think everyone saw the parallels between Hoth and our end battle in TLJ?
I am not saying these things make it bad. I am saying it is not as ‘original’ and therefore ‘refreshing’ as it is cracked up to be. Same way it isn’t the great anti-male PC polemic the nutters believe it is either.
Yes, both sides of the fandom are Toxic because they can’t, as Obi Wan would no doubt point out, see different points of view.

 

[fireproof78]

I think everyone saw the parallels between Hoth and our end battle in TLJ?

In broad strokes I can kind of see it. But the larger themes are not the same. Though, this is the same argument that insists that TFA is beat for beat copy of ANH, an argument I can see but the themes and characters are ultimately different in the end.

 

[Professor Zoom]

It was a description designed

Yep. Designed.

Are there shallow similarities? Sure. But it’s a franchise. It’s the same universe. You could say the salt flats are like the desert of Geonosis. But that doesn’t make it so. And in fact, wouldn’t it make more sense to compare it to that? Both are the climaxes of their respective movies. Whereas you have to make some sort of logical twisting the beginning is the end, the end is the beginning It rhymes! to prove a “point”

You strip most things of their details and it’s going to look like anything else.

Your designed description is an unfair unclear representation of the movie.

I don’t care if you like it or not, but at least don’t like it based on the movie, not that it bears bares passing resemblance—once strip of detail—to other parts of the franchise.

 

[jaime]

Yep. Designed.

Are there shallow similarities? Sure. But it’s a franchise. It’s the same universe. You could say the salt flats are like the desert of Geonosis. But that doesn’t make it so. And in fact, wouldn’t it make more sense to compare it to that? Both are the climaxes of their respective movies. Whereas you have to make some sort of logical twisting the beginning is the end, the end is the beginning It rhymes! to prove a “point”

You strip most things of their details and it’s going to look like anything else.

Your designed description is an unfair unclear representation of the movie.

I don’t care if you like it or not, but at least don’t like it based on the movie, not that it bears bares passing resemblance—once strip of detail—to other parts of the franchise.

I see. And the robot hand scene deliberately echoing AOTC and the original in ESB?
You don’t think making it similar to ESB and Hoth was deliberate? Same way we got a Yavin IV moment TFA?
You don’t think the Canto Bight diversion and slow chase were deliberately similar to Cloud City and the Flight of the Falcon in ESB?
Because I would say these things were deliberately done.
You think I raise them to detract from the movie.
I do not. I like these things about the film. It’s exactly the sort of thing George did so well in the PT.
They do however illustrate that almost nothing in it is particularly original...including having a cranky old Jedi master reluctantly taking on a pupil, and indeed, a tree.
It’s a remix of ESB.
It’s like gangster rap, it rhymes.

 

[jaime]

In broad strokes I can kind of see it. But the larger themes are not the same. Though, this is the same argument that insists that TFA is beat for beat copy of ANH, an argument I can see but the themes and characters are ultimately different in the end.

I wouldn’t and did t say the larger themes are the same. I simply think intentional decisions were made making a lot of, almost all, the scenes intentionally echo the previous film.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I see. And the robot hand scene deliberately echoing AOTC and the original in ESB?
You don’t think making it similar to ESB and Hoth was deliberate? Same way we got a Yavin IV moment TFA?
You don’t think the Canto Bight diversion and slow chase were deliberately similar to Cloud City and the Flight of the Falcon in ESB?
Because I would say these things were deliberately done.
You think I raise them to detract from the movie.
I do not. I like these things about the film. It’s exactly the sort of thing George did so well in the PT.
They do however illustrate that almost nothing in it is particularly original...including having a cranky old Jedi master reluctantly taking on a pupil, and indeed, a tree.
It’s a remix of ESB.
It’s like gangster rap, it rhymes.

Yavin 4 moment in TFA? You’ll have to point out what that moment is because I have no idea what you are referring to.

Canto Bight and Cloud City the same? How? Other than being a B story for some of the characters? Canto Bight—even with its narrative problems—opens up the universe in a way Cloud City never did. The wealthy who profit from ongoing war. It shows the universe isn’t just 2 sided.

And a horse chase is the same as the Flight of the Falcon? Thats like saying the pod racing is the same as the speeder bikes. You are stretching facts to fit your theory.

And stop saying gangster rap. You sound silly and pejorative.

 

[jaime]

Yavin 4 moment in TFA? You’ll have to point out what that moment is because I have no idea what you are referring to.

Canto Bight and Cloud City the same? How? Other than being a B story for some of the characters? Canto Bight—even with its narrative problems—opens up the universe in a way Cloud City never did. The wealthy who profit from ongoing war. It shows the universe isn’t just 2 sided.

And a horse chase is the same as the Flight of the Falcon? Thats like saying the pod racing is the same as the speeder bikes. You are stretching facts to fit your theory.

And stop saying gangster rap. You sound silly and pejorative.

Nope..not the horse chase..that’s the podracing. Which was, funnily enough, intentionally designed to bring to mind the speeder bike scenes when they made TPM. So hmmmmmm.

The rebel ship running from the slow star destroyer occasionally popping off a shot? Bit like the slow bombing of the asteroid field in ESB tbh. Not a lot.

Canto Bight is where we go off to luxury colony type place to find the one man who might be able to help our heroes on the off chance...it was even discussed as being a place where Lando could have made an appearance. Instead we find a person who says they can help them, who then betrays them and hands them over instead. We even get a sudden kiss for the hero and heroine who went on this diversion, but that’s more of a stretch.

The scenes at Maz Cantina and it’s geography with X-Wings etc deliberately echo the appearance of Yavin IV. Didn’t they film at the same place? They then go from there to their amalgam of both Death Star battles. They are deliberate echoes. And I am fine with that.

Gangster rap is a modern music form, often criticised for its negativity and violence, and divisive nature, that often depends on sampling older works for its structural component. It also rhymes, quite often.
So to use it to paraphrase George is a bit of a joke, but also a bit of a comment.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Nope..not the horse chase..that’s the podracing. Which was, funnily enough, intentionally designed to bring to mind the speeder bike scenes when they made TPM. So hmmmmmm.

The rebel ship running from the slow star destroyer occasionally popping off a shot? Bit like the slow bombing of the asteroid field in ESB tbh. Not a lot.

Yeah. Not a lot.

Canto Bight is where we go off to luxury colony type place to find the one man who might be able to help our heroes on the off chance...it was even discussed as being a place where Lando could have made an appearance. Instead we find a person who says they can help them, who then betrays them and hands them over instead. We even get a sudden kiss for the hero and heroine who went on this diversion, but that’s more of a stretch.

So, a luxury colony type place... which is not at all like a gas mining facility, like Cloud City.
It was discussed... as in... a rumor by fans... that Lando could make an appearance... so... how is that an intentional "rhyme" on the part of the creators? How is Canto and Cloud City the same again?

You are beginning to see, these are stretches.

The scenes at Maz Cantina and it’s geography with X-Wings etc deliberately echo the appearance of Yavin IV. Didn’t they film at the same place? They then go from there to their amalgam of both Death Star battles. They are deliberate echoes. And I am fine with that.

A visit to a cantina is an echo to a secret rebel base because they are on foresty planets? You're going for that as an echo? If feels like you are conveniently ignoring a certain other cantina scene in a movie in order for this echo to work. I thought you were talking about the secret Rebel base and the secret Resistance base... and that they were both secret and in places of moderate weather.

I mean... come on... you're stretching...

Gangster rap is a modern music form, often criticised for its negativity and violence, and divisive nature, that often depends on sampling older works for its structural component. It also rhymes, quite often.
So to use it to paraphrase George is a bit of a joke, but also a bit of a comment.

Son, you don't have to lecture me about Gangster Rap. I've been around long enough. Lots of things rhyme. Songs. Poems. It's not a very cute joke.

 

[Kibbin]

So, a luxury colony type place... which is not at all like a gas mining facility, like Cloud City.
It was discussed... as in... a rumor by fans... that Lando could make an appearance... so... how is that an intentional "rhyme" on the part of the creators? How is Canto and Cloud City the same again?

Except we didn't go to the mines of Cloud City, we went to the lovely, white wash, art deco, shopping mall style side (Please note I have no idea what art deco actually is and I don't care, please nobody point out what style Cloud City really was). There was a dark side that we saw briefly with C-3PO just like we saw the dark side to Canto but the point here being that they were both fancy upmarket places. Lando doesn't come out and meet them in his boiler suit

EDIT: Plus as was stated they both have people making deals with the bad guys to keep their rich comfortable life styles.

A visit to a cantina is an echo to a secret rebel base because they are on foresty planets? You're going for that as an echo? If feels like you are conveniently ignoring a certain other cantina scene in a movie in order for this echo to work.

Visually. Jaime is saying that they both look similar visually, as in for buildings in a galaxy far far away. The bar was not on some capital world or on an asteroid or in the middle of a field or up a tree. Jaime even talks about the belief they were shot in the same place. Now I don't think that's true but you can see the similarity and I think this has fueled the belief that Maz's bar might be an old Jedi Temple as it looks similar to the other old Jedi temple we've seen. The secret base at Yavin IV.

 

[jaime]

Yeah. Not a lot.



So, a luxury colony type place... which is not at all like a gas mining facility, like Cloud City.
It was discussed... as in... a rumor by fans... that Lando could make an appearance... so... how is that an intentional "rhyme" on the part of the creators? How is Canto and Cloud City the same again?

You are beginning to see, these are stretches.



A visit to a cantina is an echo to a secret rebel base because they are on foresty planets? You're going for that as an echo? If feels like you are conveniently ignoring a certain other cantina scene in a movie in order for this echo to work. I thought you were talking about the secret Rebel base and the secret Resistance base... and that they were both secret and in places of moderate weather.

I mean... come on... you're stretching...



Son, you don't have to lecture me about Gangster Rap. I've been around long enough. Lots of things rhyme. Songs. Poems. It's not a very cute joke.

Don’t call me son.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/3704e2/its_like_poetry_it_rhymes_how_is_this_a_bad_thing/