"Fannon" I like that 'word'.
How Do You Feel About Chakotay?
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Well I don't think Beltran's acting was horrible all the time. Often it was great. But when it was bad it was wretched, and ruined the scene.
Shatner's acting is much cornier to be sure, though. And much more hilarious, especially in Season 3.
Okay, now I'm curious to go scope this out.
Well, I keep thinking that Robert Beltran's attitude on and out sets, served his character
Indeed, we can note that in first 3 seasons, Chakotay's character was pretty well-served then from s4, which corresponded to Ryan/Seven's arrival, Chakotay's role gradually melted in th background until to almost have to beg the producers to give him something to do in the finale, which is reflected in the questionned Chakotay/Seven's sudden romance in the finale, so nothing essential and worst, downright forgettable. What a sad end for Chakotay, a character who was supposed to be Janneway's loyal counterpart deputy!
Indeed, we can note that in first 3 seasons, Chakotay's character was pretty well-served then from s4, which corresponded to Ryan/Seven's arrival, Chakotay's role gradually melted in th background until to almost have to beg the producers to give him something to do in the finale, which is reflected in the questionned Chakotay/Seven's sudden romance in the finale, so nothing essential and worst, downright forgettable. What a sad end for Chakotay, a character who was supposed to be Janneway's loyal counterpart deputy!
I actually read that he dared Braga to pair him with Seven since Braga was dating Ryan at the time. Maybe he thought TPTB wouldn't have the gumption to do it... ?
Correct but what is strange is (that) neither Beltran who made the suggestion/bet (of seeing his character, Chakotay, kissing Ryan's Seven) or Ryan (who would have forced her boyfriend of the moment, aka Braga, to accept it just to have the occasion to kiss Beltran at least once), seemed particularly invested in their Endgame's romantic scenes, where they trully sucked to show the attraction & love their characters were supposed to feel!
I guess the bet was worth for Human Error where Seven/Ryan flirted with holo Chakotay/Beltran but once both actors got the occasion to share a kiss, the curiosity/temporary interest - or whatever the reason given to justify it -, has disappeared... . And to prove that, just listen to their response when questioned about C/7's romance. Both actors answered not to understand this storyline at this point of the series (=Endgame).
For the longest time, I, myself, was a Chakotay/Janeway shipper. But now? ...
Now, I've switched camps. Seven of Nine holds the key to Chakotay's happiness.
I was one of those that liked Chakotay. He had a certain pragmatism about him. Janeway was always ready to go where angels fear to tread and he was a good counterbalance to that. I'm not sure I'd agree that he was relegated to a background character after season 3. I thought he played a key role in a number of episodes. Now like all the characters he had his moments and there were episodes where he was filler, but that's true of all the characters. Even in a show like TNG there were times Riker was in the background. And I'll agree after Seven came on board a lot of focus shifted to her, but I didn't notice a significant change in screen time or plot time for Chakotay.
I think the two actors didn't click, but in universe the relationship did make sense.
For the longest time, I, myself, was a Chakotay/Janeway shipper. But now? ...
Now, I've switched camps. Seven of Nine holds the key to Chakotay's happiness.
Beltran is more or less a good an actor as any of them.
But the role of first officer can be unfortunate unless you are some kind of spectacular character. You're in a not-quite-the-captain role of being a assistant to the captain. Chakotay's Maquis' rebelliousness was neutered in an effort to recapture that TNG vibe of them all getting along and Chakotay being portrayed as an active practitioner of his mystical heritage pushes him into being a conciliatory 'wise man' figure.
It's also a large-ish cast with Janeway, the doctor, torres and Seven being flamboyant figures. Tuvok and Paris are both prominent. Lots of hard fought real estate for Beltran to be squeezed out of there.
Torres moving off with Paris somewhat further isolated the Chakotay character I think.
Not to say there isn't good character moments for Chakotay with Janeway, Torres and occasionally Tuvok. But I'm surprised with all the action-hero wise cracks they shoveled on during the premiere there is so little real clashing with Paris during the series.
The Seven-Chakotay stuff was like flicking a switch and seemed an awkward pairing. At least, I need relationships to develop a little beforehand rather than be some surprise overnight thing.
But the role of first officer can be unfortunate unless you are some kind of spectacular character. You're in a not-quite-the-captain role of being a assistant to the captain. Chakotay's Maquis' rebelliousness was neutered in an effort to recapture that TNG vibe of them all getting along and Chakotay being portrayed as an active practitioner of his mystical heritage pushes him into being a conciliatory 'wise man' figure.
It's also a large-ish cast with Janeway, the doctor, torres and Seven being flamboyant figures. Tuvok and Paris are both prominent. Lots of hard fought real estate for Beltran to be squeezed out of there.
Torres moving off with Paris somewhat further isolated the Chakotay character I think.
Not to say there isn't good character moments for Chakotay with Janeway, Torres and occasionally Tuvok. But I'm surprised with all the action-hero wise cracks they shoveled on during the premiere there is so little real clashing with Paris during the series.
The Seven-Chakotay stuff was like flicking a switch and seemed an awkward pairing. At least, I need relationships to develop a little beforehand rather than be some surprise overnight thing.
Oh, joyful day! For once, Sophie, you and I are in complete agreement. Not many are willing to post that. They feel the need to follow popular opinion on the subject. But you're right ... Seven and Chakotay did make sense and I'm glad that he was finally able to find love without all of the unnecessary baggage that the others offered.
Seska, I believe, did love Chakotay, insofar as she was able to express and experience love. She even tried to impregnate herself with his DNA, which shows what an idiot she was, she used the wrong DNA! Oh, WELL!!! But aside from her being a naughty person, she was actually quite nuts, which no Man needs from a woman, believe me. Then, there's Kellin, with her strange case of always having to have her memories erased. Then there was Riley: The Borg Lady who played Chakotay for a chump outside the bedroom. Kathryn, of course, was flattered by Chakotay's attentions, but never responded in kind.
What a gift it was to finally have a woman who loved Chakotay as a woman can ... as a woman should ... despite her Borg implants and naivete in general. She made him her all, which he hadn't seen very much of in this series. In fact ... none. And it's not fan fiction, it's not unused material, it's all there onscreen. Chakotay and Seven ... their love is a canonical part of the narrative that is the VOYAGER series.
Seska, I believe, did love Chakotay, insofar as she was able to express and experience love. She even tried to impregnate herself with his DNA, which shows what an idiot she was, she used the wrong DNA! Oh, WELL!!! But aside from her being a naughty person, she was actually quite nuts, which no Man needs from a woman, believe me. Then, there's Kellin, with her strange case of always having to have her memories erased. Then there was Riley: The Borg Lady who played Chakotay for a chump outside the bedroom. Kathryn, of course, was flattered by Chakotay's attentions, but never responded in kind.
What a gift it was to finally have a woman who loved Chakotay as a woman can ... as a woman should ... despite her Borg implants and naivete in general. She made him her all, which he hadn't seen very much of in this series. In fact ... none. And it's not fan fiction, it's not unused material, it's all there onscreen. Chakotay and Seven ... their love is a canonical part of the narrative that is the VOYAGER series.
The way i saw their relationship....
Janeway rejected him so instead of pining away for her he moved on. It makes sense it was Seven since they're both members of the senior staff they spend a lot of time together. The only other woman he spent time with was B'elanna and she was taken. A few episodes before Endgame Seven has the hologram of chakotay which opens her eyes to him. Then they crash on that planet together. In Endgame we see then after one or two dates. It was the very beginning of their romantic relationship.
A fair summarisation! Yes, there were in-Universe reasons why Chakotay and Seven might've decided to get together and those were definitely in play, as they should've been. It didn't make sense to have these two go through the remainder of the series alone, when they had the most to offer a potential partner. In Reality, of course, it may have been done "just because" the writers could, and as we've seen on this very forum, many fans chortle at the idea, but it was not unnatural for these two people to fall for eachother and I'm glad they did.
I get why people criticize it, especially if they wanted a different pairing. But it didn't come out of nowhere as people complain about. If we saw then getting engaged then yeah that woukd would have come out of nowhere. But we saw them after thier second (or was it the first) date. We saw them starting out
That is exactly correct and it was a much more organic way of pairing characters than what we saw with Tom & B'Elanna. They had to be stuck together in outerspace, ready to die like Tim Robbins in MISSION to MARS. Then, with their dying breath, they're all like, "Oh! How I love thee! Let me count the ways ..." Chakotay and Seven occurred much more naturally. I've mentioned this before, but I'm mentioning it again, here, because I'm thinking of it: when Seven was made to believe that their relationship might hurt Chakotay, and she was ready to end it only to save him from pain and suffering ... that really speaks to me. Her feelings for him aren't trivial ... there is a deeper feeling. And when Chakotay tells her that it's a chance all relationships have to take, Seven seems profoundly relieved that their relationship didn't have to die young. And then they kiss passionately and all that ... it's good stuff.
Actually I loved the way tom and belanna got together. It was a long progression from dislike, to tolerance, friendship, and then love. It was a natural organic progression.
Yes to all of that, but the event that triggered the love progression was way over the top. I mean ... yes, Men are often reticent to commit, I must volunteer that. But they don't usually need a near-death experience to finally get to that point. It seemed kind of forced; very soap operaish. Space Operaish, actually ...
But it wasn't Tom it was B'elanna who proclaimed her love. Tom said nothing back. Later he even gave her an out which she didn't take
Yes, but he was already in love with her, which she knew only too well ... partly from Blood Fever, but mostly because of their constant flirtations in Season 3, especially. Torres just kept leading him on, until Day of Honour.
I think neither Beltran nor Ryan understood (or rather felt any authenticity regarding) the pairing in Endgame because they were both told specifically not to "play that angle" in Natural Law. Human Error worked to an extent (for me anyway) in giving us some info on Seven trying to regain her humanity and struggling. And, yes, also showing that she was developing feelings for Chakotay... Natural Law was a missed opportunity to expound on what was already started and would have taken some of the awkwardness out of the paring in the finale. Telling the two not to play up their feelings for one another in NL was a big mistake on the part of the creators/writers. Even something subtle (like a glance between them) in one or two spots would have worked well imho. I suspect that might have been the impetus for Beltran prompting Braga with that dare.Correct but what is strange is (that) neither Beltran who made the suggestion/bet (of seeing his character, Chakotay, kissing Ryan's Seven) or Ryan (who would have forced her boyfriend of the moment, aka Braga, to accept it just to have the occasion to kiss Beltran at least once), seemed particularly invested in their Endgame's romantic scenes, where they trully sucked to show the attraction & love their characters were supposed to feel!
I guess the bet was worth for Human Error where Seven/Ryan flirted with holo Chakotay/Beltran but once both actors got the occasion to share a kiss, the curiosity/temporary interest - or whatever the reason given to justify it -, has disappeared... . And to prove that, just listen to their response when questioned about C/7's romance. Both actors answered not to understand this storyline at this point of the series (=Endgame).
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