Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?

[TREK_GOD_1]

Is it not? My word, I'll have to reconsider my whole world view.

This is not The Young Turks. where sarcasm is considered part of a legitimate response

So imagery, as I said. Not the function of the force.
Still more imagery. Guess what? You got it, more imagery.

You got it wrong...again. Lucas uses doctrine from Christianity as part of his building of the force and how its used. There's no getting around that.

Yes.

Nope. You said--

It was also never stated in the OT that he was hidden away because of his inherent abilities, merely that he was hidden away from his father.

Still incorrect.

Set Harth provided the clear OT dialogue--from Return of the Jedi:

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

All of Obi-Wan's dialogue:

"To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonymous."

She--like Luke was hidden because of their special nature / inherent abilities. Nothing random or a status/ability common to anyone else in that galaxy. No other reason would lead to Kenobi and Yoda's decision, based on the flood of established force-centered reasons why Luke matters at all. Its not about his being a pilot, shooting womp rats in his T-Sixteen, being a rebel, or even destroying the Death Star. He is that hero born with unique powers threatening universal victory/change and that is the reason he (and his sister) were hidden. So again, you are incorrect.

Are you sure you were watching the OT and not Battle Beyond the Stars or Starcrash?

That's part of the problem though. All the audience has had is the Jedi and Sith view of the Force, which may not be complete. Certainly doesn't limit Force users to just those practitioners, as evidenced by Dathomir.

Yeah, but the reason we had the Jedi and Sith view (and no other in the O/PT is thanks to Lucas clearly laying it (the force) out as a religion/philosophy that required training/doctrine not only as the way to understand it / access supernatural powers, but to be the very black and white backdrop for the morality play he created. Being unambiguous was the only and best way to get that morality play across to his target audience.

 

[Spot261]

This is not The Young Turks. where sarcasm is considered part of a legitimate response

Nope, it's human discourse where sarcasm is a perfectly legitimate response to something which warrants nothing better.

You got it wrong...again. Lucas uses doctrine from Christianity as part of his building of the force and how its used. There's no getting around that.

So when are you going to provide any evidence? All you've shown us is some of the imagery reflects Christianity. Which I had already said.

All of Obi-Wan's dialogue:

"To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonymous."

She--like Luke was hidden because of their special nature / inherent abilities. Nothing random or a status/ability common to anyone else in that galaxy. No other reason would lead to Kenobi and Yoda's decision, based on the flood of established force-centered reasons why Luke matters at all. Its not about his being a pilot, shooting womp rats in his T-Sixteen, being a rebel, or even destroying the Death Star. He is that hero born with unique powers threatening universal victory/change and that is the reason he (and his sister) were hidden. So again, you are incorrect.

Where exactly in the dialogue does it actually say what you claim it says? Where does it mention the force at all?

So again, no I'm not. He was a threat to the Emperor because he was Anakin's offspring, that's all it says. The force, or his ability with it, isn't mentioned in there at all.

 

[Kemaiku]

Also, the Authorian legends called on the Fae and pagan mythology far more than Christian.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, the Authorian legends called on the Fae and pagan mythology far more than Christian.

Sorry, this will bother me. It's Authurian. Right now reads like its a legend of an Author...

 

[Kemaiku]

Sorry, this will bother me. It's Authurian. Right now reads like its a legend of an Author...

Sorry, I never could get that one right.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, I never could get that one right.

It's ok. I didn't want to come across as the spelling police but, it stuck out...

 

[Set Harth]

He was a threat to the Emperor because he was Anakin's offspring, that's all it says.

And why exactly would Anakin's offspring be a threat, to not only the Emperor but also Vader? Is everyone else in the universe to be considered equally a threat? Perhaps there's other OT dialogue that might clear up the mystery. What must not happen to Anakin's son, according to Palpatine? What is special about the family tree, according to Luke?

 

[Samurai8472]

Director Christopher McQuarrie admits he no longer wants to make a Star Wars movie because of some of the franchise’s more virulent fans.

https://www.cbr.com/christopher-mcquarrie-star-wars-toxic-fandom/

For those that don't know. He's the director of Mission: Impossible – Rogue Nation and its upcoming sequel,

McQuarrie also stepped in to help with the reshoots of Rogue One,.

Some of the twitter posts

Christopher McQuarrie?Verified account @chrismcquarrie
Replying to @rianjohnson @austinlipskey32
My friend, After five minutes of this, I don’t know why you’re still on Twitter. I would have loved to make a Star Wars film someday. I’m cured.

Andy McCarroll? @Andymc1983 Jun 29
Replying to @chrismcquarrie @rianjohnson @austinlipskey32
Any superhero film you would be interested in making? Or did the X-Men and Wolverine experience sour you on making those types of movies. Can't wait to see Fallout.

Christopher McQuarrie?Verified account @chrismcquarrie Jun 29
Nah, after tonight I think I’m good. And thank you. Excited for you to see it.

Andy McCarroll? @Andymc1983 Jun 29
Sad to hear that. The biggest achievement in most of their lives is denying people like me, the chance to see a McQuarrie superhero movie. I hope you change your mind. Best of luck with the film sir. Pleasure to speak to you. Huge fan of everything you have done.

Christopher McQuarrie?Verified account @chrismcquarrie Jun 29
Much appreciated. And it saddens me, too. I consider myself first and foremost an entertainer. I work for the audience. Tonight I found people I could never work for.

I've never associated the Star Wars franchise as having a stigma to it

"Cross if you dare."

"WARNING! Bigot Fans are closer than they appear"

Now someone's got to have nerves of steel to dive into any future SW movies.

 

[Spot261]

And why exactly would Anakin's offspring be a threat, to not only the Emperor but also Vader? Is everyone else in the universe to be considered equally a threat?

For the reasons already explained to you?

Perhaps there's other OT dialogue that might clear up the mystery.

Yes, what's most telling is what isn't said. Palpatine sees Luke as a threat, bit at no point in over seven hours of screen time does he link that to Luke's force abilities, force abilities which are demonstratably no match for his own.

What he is worried about is exactly what happens in practise, Luke becomes a political threat to the delicate power balance on which he has built his Empire

 

[Set Harth]

Palpatine sees Luke as a threat, bit at no point in over seven hours of screen time does he link that to Luke's force abilities

Except for the part where he talks about Luke becoming a Jedi. No connection between Jedi and the Force is implied at all, right?

That was the understanding we had with the OT,the force was something available to everyone in some form but the midichlorians changed that

Who's "we"? Midichlorians changed nothing, and at the same time midichlorians were introduced it was made clear that everyone has midichlorians. If you had the understanding from the OT that everyone had equal potential to use the Force, then that was something you projected onto the OT, because it establishes nothing of the sort. In fact, it had every opportunity to go there, yet it declined, for some reason.

There are thousands of possible real world analogies here, it's very likely that the offspring of a talented athlete will be similarly talented

You're continually getting Star Wars confused with the real world. "The Force is like basketball because I say it is" doesn't make for promising logic.

TLJ has brought us full circle, the force is once again egalitarian in the way sports or academia are in an ideal world. It can be accessed and studied by anyone again, regardless of their talent.

TLJ has done nothing of the sort. You appear to have hallucinated. Unless you'd care to explain where in the film this takes place. Does the film even use the word "anyone"?

Luke said he'd only ever seen Rey's raw Force strength in one other person. Did that fail to leave an impression, just because the hated Word Which Must Not Be Spoken was left out?

Yeah, it most definitely is. Unless you can quote the scene where it’s ever actually confirmed.

It's confirmed to the fullest extent that it possibly could be. ( Yet somehow, that's never enough, which says something in and of itself. ) We can't have the author suddenly materialize bodily into the film to tell you what's going on. He's left only with the capacity to say the same thing outside of the film. ( And of course the fact that he says the same thing his characters are saying is somehow totally irrelevant, because it's unhelpful to fan revisionism. ) So yeah no, it most definitely is not.

Variable innate Force sensitivity is a social construct, right?

And the novelisation at the time outright specified that Yoda meant ‘there will always be another.’

Complete bullshit. The novelization's treatment of the scene in question is fully consistent with the film on this point. Shocker! Novelizations tend to do that sometimes, they're tricky like that.

But speaking of the novelization:

The Emperor knew, as I did, that one day, with the Force on their side, Skywalker's offspring would be a threat to him.

He knew the Emperor was frightened of young Skywalker, afraid of his power.

 

[Spot261]

Except for the part where he talks about Luke becoming a Jedi. No connection between Jedi and the Force is implied at all, right?

The following dialogue includes every instance of Palpatine using the word "Jedi" in ROTJ:

Palpatine: Welcome, young Skywalker, I have been expecting you. You no longer need those. [uses the Force to detach Luke's cuffs] Guards, leave us. [the Emperor's guards leave the room] I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call me "Master".
Luke: You're gravely mistaken. You won't convert me as you did my father.
Palpatine: Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things.
Vader: [hands Luke's lightsaber to Palpatine] His lightsaber.
Palpatine: Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon, much like your father's. By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you.
Luke: You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead, and you with me.
Palpatine: [laughing] Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet? Yes; I assure you, we are quite safe from your friends here.
Luke: Your overconfidence is your weakness.
Palpatine: [looks back at Luke] Your faith in your friends is yours.
Vader: It is pointless to resist, my son.
Palpatine: Everything that has transpired has done so, according to my design. Your friends, out there on the sanctuary moon, are walking into a trap, as is your Rebel fleet. It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. [mockingly]Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
Vader: [searching for Luke in Palpatine's chamber] You cannot hide forever, Luke.
Luke: I will not fight you.
Vader: Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... [pauses]Sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will.
Luke: [revealing himself] NEVER! [attacks Vader ferociously, eventually backing him onto a railing and cutting off his right hand. He stands over Vader for a moment.]
Palpatine: [laughing] Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side.
Luke: [looks at Vader's severed hand, then turns to face the Emperor, throwing away his lightsaber] Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You have failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
Palpatine: [angrily] So be it... Jedi.

Please tell me where that supports your case?

If you had the understanding from the OT that everyone had equal potential to use the Force, then that was something you projected onto the OT, because it establishes nothing of the sort.

I'm not sure you've read my posts correctly, oh, wait:

You're continually getting Star Wars confused with the real world. "The Force is like basketball because I say it is" doesn't make for promising logic.

So you did read them, you just didn't follow them and are contradicting yourself trying to argue two contradictory cases in error. You complain I'm stating the force is equally available to everyone, then you are complaining I speak of heritability of aptitude....please try to follow the conversation

TLJ has done nothing of the sort. You appear to have hallucinated. Unless you'd care to explain where in the film this takes place. Does the film even use the word "anyone"?

What exactly did you take home from the closing scene where the servant boy picks up a broom with the force, with Luke's monologues about the arrogance and hubris of the Jedi assuming they were the sole masters of the force, about how the force is present in every living being? Where they put there for shits and giggles?

 

[fireproof78]

What exactly did you take home from the closing scene where the servant boy picks up a broom with the force, with Luke's monologues about the arrogance and hubris of the Jedi assuming they were the sole masters of the force, about how the force is present in every living being? Where they put there for shits and giggles?

Yes. TLJ was a light hearted comedy after all

 

[JD]

I always thought it was 100% crystal clear that only a relatively small group of people actually had Force powers. That was the whole reason the Jedi and Sith were always treated as such a special thing, because they were some of the few people who actually able to use The Force. This did eventually expand to include other groups, but it's still not everyone, it's maybe a few thousand or even maybe even millions out of a galaxy of trillions.

The following dialogue includes every instance of Palpatine using the word "Jedi" in ROTJ:

He didn't use it because it was self explanatory.

What exactly did you take home from the closing scene where the servant boy picks up a broom with the force, with Luke's monologues about the arrogance and hubris of the Jedi assuming they were the sole masters of the force, about how the force is present in every living being? Where they put there for shits and giggles?

That wasn't showing that everyone could use The Force, it was showing that anyone, no matter their situation, could potentially use The Force. Yes there is a difference, a big one. Anyone could potentially be a Grammy Award winning singer, but not everyone can be.

 

[Trekkin]

Except for the part where he talks about Luke becoming a Jedi. No connection between Jedi and the Force is implied at all, right?



Who's "we"? Midichlorians changed nothing, and at the same time midichlorians were introduced it was made clear that everyone has midichlorians. If you had the understanding from the OT that everyone had equal potential to use the Force, then that was something you projected onto the OT, because it establishes nothing of the sort. In fact, it had every opportunity to go there, yet it declined, for some reason.



You're continually getting Star Wars confused with the real world. "The Force is like basketball because I say it is" doesn't make for promising logic.



TLJ has done nothing of the sort. You appear to have hallucinated. Unless you'd care to explain where in the film this takes place. Does the film even use the word "anyone"?

Luke said he'd only ever seen Rey's raw Force strength in one other person. Did that fail to leave an impression, just because the hated Word Which Must Not Be Spoken was left out?



It's confirmed to the fullest extent that it possibly could be. ( Yet somehow, that's never enough, which says something in and of itself. ) We can't have the author suddenly materialize bodily into the film to tell you what's going on. He's left only with the capacity to say the same thing outside of the film. ( And of course the fact that he says the same thing his characters are saying is somehow totally irrelevant, because it's unhelpful to fan revisionism. ) So yeah no, it most definitely is not.

Variable innate Force sensitivity is a social construct, right?



Complete bullshit. The novelization's treatment of the scene in question is fully consistent with the film on this point. Shocker! Novelizations tend to do that sometimes, they're tricky like that.

But speaking of the novelization:

*whispers*

It’s been four days...

 

[Spot261]

I always thought it was 100% crystal clear that only a relatively small group of people actually had Force powers. That was the whole reason the Jedi and Sith were always treated as such a special thing, because they were some of the few people who actually able to use The Force. This did eventually expand to include other groups, but it's still not everyone, it's maybe a few thousand or even maybe even millions out of a galaxy of trillions.

How and where was it stated or implied that only a minority could use the force? Note I didn't say "become a Jedi", I said "use the force".

If there's no evidence to the affirmative all you have is your own unsupported interpretation, you projected your own version of the universe onto the films. Simply saying some version of "we only see a minority of the characters using it" does not suffice as evidence there is some excluding factor.

He didn't use it because it was self explanatory.

Ummmm, no. You claimed he did say it. He didn't. In fact there's nothing whatsoever about that arc which necessitates Luke having force ability at all, nor is it implied. That's exactly why the exiled royal is such a trope throughout fiction, the idea of a child (or adult) who represents a threat tot he political power base.

That wasn't showing that everyone could use The Force, it was showing that anyone, no matter their situation, could potentially use The Force. Yes there is a difference, a big one. Anyone could potentially be a Grammy Award winning singer, but not everyone can be.

Well, no, those are the same statement rephrased; "everyone could use the force", "anyone could potentially use the force", unless you are using the weaker form of the latter (social status and position is irrelevant) in which case THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Nope, it's human discourse where sarcasm is a perfectly legitimate response to something which warrants nothing better.

Much like most of your posts where you insist on denying that which is an obvious part of this franchise's history.

So when are you going to provide any evidence? All you've shown us is some of the imagery reflects Christianity. Which I had already said.

Still in denial mode, as I've already posted the SW plots and concepts and its Biblical references. To finish this off, Anakin being the "Chosen One" and the product of a virgin birth is a direct analogue to Christ, despite Palpatine's suggestions of life manipulation by Darth Plagueis, which again was mere suggestion to further confuse and corrupt power-hungry Anakin.

So again, no I'm not. He was a threat to the Emperor because he was Anakin's offspring, that's all it says. The force, or his ability with it, isn't mentioned in there at all.

Except for the part where he talks about Luke becoming a Jedi. No connection between Jedi and the Force is implied at all, right?

Exactly. The hologram scene in TESB spells it all out: Luke is not only all but screamed to be special, but the Emperor wanting Luke to be prevented from becoming a Jedi says it all. This is not something shared by the faceless, random people of the galaxy.

Who's "we"? Midichlorians changed nothing, and at the same time midichlorians were introduced it was made clear that everyone has midichlorians. If you had the understanding from the OT that everyone had equal potential to use the Force, then that was something you projected onto the OT, because it establishes nothing of the sort. In fact, it had every opportunity to go there, yet it declined, for some reason.

Yes, he's projecting based on no film evidence. In the PT, the existence of Midichlorians were never said to be "an equal opportunity gateway to use the force" at all, not by Jinn, Windu, Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Kenobi, Maul or anyone else knowledgeable in the doctrine / spiritualism of the force. The only reason Jinn said anything to Anakin about it was his belief that Anakin was the Chosen One, and wanted to start him on a rudimentary understanding of the force. He did not have that conversation with commoners walking the streets of Anywhere, Galaxy. Moreover, the Jedi were finite in number because of force potential/access/understanding was not to be found in every random person.

Luke said he'd only ever seen Rey's raw Force strength in one other person. Did that fail to leave an impression, just because the hated Word Which Must Not Be Spoken was left out?

The latter. The bottom line is that Luke only saw that in one other person. He never said or implied the faceless numbers had that level of ability/connection/potential at all.

It's confirmed to the fullest extent that it possibly could be. ( Yet somehow, that's never enough, which says something in and of itself. ) We can't have the author suddenly materialize bodily into the film to tell you what's going on. He's left only with the capacity to say the same thing outside of the film. ( And of course the fact that he says the same thing his characters are saying is somehow totally irrelevant, because it's unhelpful to fan revisionism. ) .

Revisionism is correct, and its a view wiling to wipe away all developed/established in the O/PT all for whatever the sequel trilogy slapped on the series, no matter how out of step with the other films..

 

[Refuge]

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

In the OT we find Palpatine saying outright that the Sith risk destruction at Luke's hand. Could the same be said for everyone else in the galaxy? If it could, wouldn't that make it sort of pointless to single out Luke in this regard?



Not really. It's the difference between "The Force is strong in my family" as opposed to "The Force is strong in everyone." One of these was said in the OT; the other wasn't.

That rather says all that needs to be said!

 

[Reverend]

I always thought it was 100% crystal clear that only a relatively small group of people actually had Force powers. That was the whole reason the Jedi and Sith were always treated as such a special thing, because they were some of the few people who actually able to use The Force. This did eventually expand to include other groups, but it's still not everyone, it's maybe a few thousand or even maybe even millions out of a galaxy of trillions.

I think one of the most common mental stumbling blocks with this whole thing is the very notion of "force powers". Really speaking, there's no such thing as a "force power".
This may seem like semantics, but it's pretty fundamental to how the whole thing works: force "sensitivity" is not a binary state, it's a gradient. All living things are a part of the force, from microbes to megafauna and everything in-between.
The reason there was only 10,000 or so Jedi at any given time isn't because there were only that many force sensitives in the galaxy, it's because the Jedi (and by extension, the Sith) selected only those born with a preternatural gift for communing with the force. They were natural prodigies. Savants. This made them easier and quicker to train (sound ominously familiar? It should!) No meditating on a mountain peak for 30 years to achieve inner peace and connect to the force within; these little Mozarts were born with an innate talent. That's not the same thing as being the only one's that could possibly train as Jedi or Sith, they're just the ones the Jedi and Sith *wanted*.

I get the sense that in the old days, Jedi reciters let the force guide them to those that would be their students and didn't rely so much on blood tests, standardised examinations or rigid criteria. Not sure why that changed; perhaps it was just the inevitable rot of bureaucracy taking root over the course of millennia. Perhaps it was a direct reaction to the Sith schism that they felt compelled to become more organised in recruiting as many powerful candidates as possible to stand against the growing darkness.
Either way, the Jedi got it into their heads that they were somehow different or special, loosing sight of what they once were and becoming just another religion more concerned with self perpetuation than the purpose they originally served.

 

[Spot261]

Much like most of your posts where you insist on denying that which is an obvious part of this franchise's history.

Obvious to you maybe, but that's not exactly enough to build a case is it?

Still in denial mode, as I've already posted the SW plots and concepts and its Biblical references. To finish this off, Anakin being the "Chosen One" and the product of a virgin birth is a direct analogue to Christ, despite Palpatine's suggestions of life manipulation by Darth Plagueis, which again was mere suggestion to further confuse and corrupt power-hungry Anakin.

So yet again, nothing to do with the mechanics of the force? Is there a required number of times a simple concept has to be repeated before you comprehend it?

Yes, he's projecting based on no film evidence. In the PT, the existence of Midichlorians were never said to be "an equal opportunity gateway to use the force" at all

Which no one has claimed. Try reading.

Clearly this is going nowhere, nice chatting, shame you can't keep up

 

[Jedi Marso]

So....all talk of midichlorians aside, where do you think the core saga goes or should go story-wise after Episode IX?