Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[suarezguy]

Engaging in private foreign policy is a violation of the Logan Act
View attachment 5295
Not to worry, though, because no one is ever prosecuted.

Too many laws and they never get repealed! And yeah, very selectively prosecuted.

 

[lawman]

If "admiration" is what they were going for, they should've cut the line about "of course, they'd all be thrown out of Starfleet today." Reading it now, it's the "of course" that really gets me. It carries the clear subtext that Kirk's crew just wasn't up to the same standard as the 24th century. "Oh, we'd never put up with that sort of thing now."

Hear, hear. It always seemed to me to convey the attitude that Janeway thought the old days might've been fun, but 24th-century Starfleet was better. Which did not endear me to Janeway, or the people who put those words in her mouth.

Different mentalities of the captains. Kirk saw the Prime Directive as a guideline while Picard saw it as a strict rule.

I think the whole perception of what the PD was changed between eras. Kirk saw it (sensibly) as a bulwark against imperialism and exploitation, whereas Picard saw it (IMHO uncharacteristically, given his otherwise rational demeanor) as practically an obligation to believe in some sort of metaphysical "fate" or "destiny" guiding events.

Which, of course, speaks to the attitudes of the writers behind those characters... and suggests to me that the TNG-era writers themselves just didn't really grasp the point of the PD.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

At this stage he was just a retired ambassador and presumably free to do whatever he liked.

Actually, Fleet Admiral Brackett refers to Spock as "one of our most celebrated Ambassadors", suggesting that he was an active member of the Federation Diplomatic Corps at the time of his disappearance.

Also:

SPOCK: What are you doing on Romulus?
PICARD: That was to have been my question of you, sir.
SPOCK: It is no concern of Starfleet.
PICARD: On the contrary, it is very much Starfleet's concern. You're in a position to compromise the security of the Federation.
SPOCK: You may assure your superiors, Captain, that I am here on a personal mission of peace, and I will advise Starfleet when it is appropriate.

The fact that Spock doesn't deny that he has the ability to compromise the Federation security supports the idea that he's an active Ambassador with access to sensitive information and therefore bound and accountable to Starfleet (and/or the Federation Security Agency).

 

[johnnybear]

Spock must have stayed on Romulus in the supporting years until his travelling into the other reality in JJ's Trek! That's dedication for you!
JB

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Spock must have stayed on Romulus in the supporting years until his travelling into the other reality in JJ's Trek! That's dedication for you!
JB

Being a Vulcan allows you to make really long-term plans.

 

[Vger23]

Still what business was it of Picard?

If Spock wanted to be a missionary then why did Picard think he had the right to judge.

Wasn't Spock trying to star a peaceful revolution? He never said he wanted the Romulans to be exactly like Vulcans. I don't think Spock of all people would think or want that. Anything seems better than the dull existence on Romulus as shown in Reunification.

Another example in TNG as a dig at TOS if you're really paranoid is when Riker (I think it might have been Beverley though) tried to get Picard to go on leave. Kirk fell for it when Spock tried it in Shore Leave but Picard didn't.. Showing Picards way smarter than Kirk.

Picard spent his entire career "judging"

 

[Commishsleer]

Spock said that it was none of Starfleet's concern. Starfleet clearly felt otherwise.


Starfleet clearly felt otherwise.


Now this is just getting silly. So it was wrong for Picard to lecture Spock, but Picard should have resorted to force rather than talk to Spock? As if he had such an option...he and one other officer managed to sneak onto the Romulan homeworld.

The bottom line, though, is that Picard was acting as Starfleet and the Federation's representative the entire time. It wasn't Picard overstepping his duty and choosing to lecture Spock. It was Picard doing his duty.

Picard had a right to speak to Spock but with the respect a man of his accomplishments and demeanor is due

And if Picard considered Spock a threat to Federation security then he should have forced him home.
That was Picard's duty.
I know Star Trek wasn't that kind of show where they would resort to lethal force for someone doing what Spock was doing. Certainly Picard wasn't the guy for that sort of mission. Maybe Archer...

Actually, Fleet Admiral Brackett refers to Spock as "one of our most celebrated Ambassadors", suggesting that he was an active member of the Federation Diplomatic Corps at the time of his disappearance.

Also:

SPOCK: What are you doing on Romulus?
PICARD: That was to have been my question of you, sir.
SPOCK: It is no concern of Starfleet.
PICARD: On the contrary, it is very much Starfleet's concern. You're in a position to compromise the security of the Federation.
SPOCK: You may assure your superiors, Captain, that I am here on a personal mission of peace, and I will advise Starfleet when it is appropriate.

The fact that Spock doesn't deny that he has the ability to compromise the Federation security supports the idea that he's an active Ambassador with access to sensitive information and therefore bound and accountable to Starfleet (and/or the Federation Security Agency).

Yes I agree that Picard said Spock did a bad bad thing but it sounded like he didn't fill in the right forms or beg Starfleet's permission in triplicate. Spock dismissed Picard's concerns by saying "I am here on a personal mission of peace" indicating that he did not represent Starfleet - "This is no concern of Starfleet:". Not I am a representative of Starfleet/Federation and I don't care. He said he was only representing himself no matter what Starfleet thought.

Perrin told Picard that Spock had wound up his affairs. Which meant to me he was no longer a Starfleet/Federation Ambassador. Or was Perrin lying ? If someone winds up their affairs to me that means to me they are not continuing on on their current position.

I'm assuming that Spock didn't have any secret or vital information or otherwise Data would have knocked him over the head, dragged him back to the Federation and locked him up in a Federation prison if he dared going on a "personal mission of peace" again.
The big danger of Spock on Romulus was his ability as a scientist. Picard really needed to ascertain whether Spock was going to use his talents to help Romulus on a technological level. Once he learnt that Spock was on some pathetic mission of peace Picard was happy to leave him to his own devices.

 

[Herbert]

I suppose "Cowboy Diplomacy" from Unification could be insulting or condescending but I just took it as Picard being obnoxiously self righteous as he was wont to do from time to time.

"How long will it REALLY take?" from Relics is funny. Nothing insulting about that, although Geordi's generally dismissive attitude towards Scotty is insulting.

However, if you really want insulting comments about the past all you have to do is look at TNG season one. The one that sticks out most for me is Riker's dismissive attitude towards 20th century humans in the episode, Neutral Zone.

Can't comment on the DS9 stuff as I haven't seen them (I really do need to see Trials and Tribbelations someday though. ) but the Voyager references seemed like romanticized comments about the past.

 

[Lance]

I'd actually almost call "Relics" the opposite. In his answer, Geordi immediately comes across as lacking charisma compared to Scotty. LaForge comes across like a boring automaton who lacks Scott's sense of fun and enjoying his work, so the scene plays like Geordi's the bad guy for being such a dutiful prick with a stick up his ass who irritably shoots down Scotty for no good reason at all.

 

[Prax]

Geordi is definitely a jerkass to Scotty, but it's sort of the plot, and not a swipe at TOS by the TNG producers. They become pals before the story ends.

And it might be worth mentioning; Spock...was wrong! He was deceived. His entire "movement" was a ploy by the powers that be to root out their enemies, and use Spock's famous face to conquer his world. We can forgive Spock for not anticipating a plan so dumb, but nonetheless...

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Does he have to answer to them for the rest of his life?

Only in the sense that as a former high-level, high security clearance Starfleet officer, he's a valuable asset to spies, enemy powers, etc, as a(n unwilling) source of info, and a possible hostage. So if he's going to a place where things might get hairy, appearing to consort with the enemy, etc., they would like to know.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Here's all the references to the 23rd century:
The Outrageous Okona - Stano Riga, who "specialised in jokes about quantum mathematics."
Violations - Iresine Syndrome, first diagnosed that century
If Wishes Were Horses - subspace rupture in the Hanoli System in the mid twenty third century.
Trials and Tribble-ations - Dax likes the 23rd century designs of tricorders, etc; by the end of the 23rd century, tribbles had become extinct from their homeworld
Flashback - Hikaru Sulu doesn't resemble his Starfleet HQ portrait because "holographic imaging resolution was less accurate."
Cause and Effect - Bateson thinks it's still 2278.

 

[Timewalker]

DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations" largely kept free of this stuff, probably because they were actually inserting themselves into a genuine TOS episode, so they couldn't write to the cliche version of TOS as the other shows tended to.

That scene where Sisko met Kirk wasn't even from "The Trouble With Tribbles." It's from "Mirror, Mirror" with Marlena removed and Sisko added.

And when VOY did their own TOS tribute episode, "Flashback," they had Janeway talk about how of course Kirk & company would all be thrown out of the more enlightened Starfleet of the 24th century.

That smug tone of voice, the oh-so-superior body language, and the smirk on Janeway's face just made me want to reach into the screen and slap it right off her.

Of all the post-TOS captains, the most Kirk-like of them is JANEWAY.

Kirk flirted with women to get something he wanted or needed, and that's what Janeway did with Kashyk. And while Kirk presumably had some fun with the Ruth facsimile on the shore leave planet, Janeway had Michael Sullivan to play around with on the holodeck (after having improved his education, changed his height, and deleted his wife).

Janeway gambled and bluffed like Kirk did... and not only that, she also blew the damn ship up more times than Kirk did (no matter which universe we're talking about, it's Kathryn Janeway who rams Voyager into the Krenim ship, sets the autodestruct in the episode where Harry and Naomi escape to "our" Voyager, and I may have forgotten a couple of other times when she threatens to destroy the ship).

Her claim that she never broke the Prime Directive is just so much BS, and she's certainly at least bent regulations for the sake of one crewmember.

If Kirk and crew should be booted out of Starfleet for Temporal Prime Directive violations (which didn't exist yet), where does that leave Janeway, who committed multiple violations after the rules were put in place?

She has no right to that smug tone and the smirk on her face.

So I voted for the "Flashback" scene. To me it's the worst of the lot.

How do we view and talking about people from the late 19th and early 20th century? We can be a bit condescending (and rightfully so on some things) about how things were done (slavery, lack of women's rights, the list goes on...). Star Trek is no different. How will people talk about us in 2118? "Man, I can't believe those people elected someone like Donald Trump, what were they thinking back then!" LOL

I had that thought less than 5 minutes after hearing the results of the election.

I actually liked that line, since it was a cute callback to "Requiem for Methuselah," and I'm amused by the idea that some of Kirk's more far-fetched adventures are now regarded with some skepticism.

I tend to think of "Requiem for Methuselah" as a really superduper early pilot for the Highlander TV series. After all, nobody knows if the Immortals would continue to be Immortal if they left Earth.

Yeah, I can just imagine some Starfleet Commodore or Admiral reading Kirk's report and thinking, "He met who? Okay. Sure. Must've been some entity impersonating him. Or Jim's yanking our chain again. I told him not to do that in official logs... "

Is meeting Leonardo da Vinci any more or less likely than meeting Abraham Lincoln or Surak of Vulcan? After all, Surak lived thousands of years in the past.

Or what about Zephram Cochrane? Flint isn't the only person from the past Kirk met and promised not to tell anyone about.

Yeah, agreed. I wish Picard could've fought some telekinetic aliens in togas once in a while. Just for variety's sake.

The Platonians wore tunics, not togas.

The number of times he does it in TOS is debatable. 'Amok Time' definitely sees him disobey an order (again like TSFS he does it for Spock), ...

Kirk does receive permission to divert to Vulcan. It's after the fact, but he does receive it, so it can't actually be considered an act of disobedience.

Kirk didn't mention da Vinci in his official log, because he told Flint he would keep his (previous) immortality a secret. Only three people knew of it: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Spock also said he'd keep it a secret, so I guess McCoy blabbed to somebody in a drunken stupor.

More likely the writers didn't read the script carefully enough. But at least 23rd century Zephram Cochrane's secret was kept. Otherwise, Geordi, Riker, and Barclay would have been babbling and yapping on about the female cloud creature he'd meet on a planetoid, and how she joined with a dying human woman so they could spend the rest of their lives together. Oh, and he'd get younger and much shorter.

Absolutely. Kirk wasn't above romancing alien women, but even then a good 90% of the time it was a meaningful liason for both of them, not just some fling, and he'd certainly never have been unprofessional about it.

Maybe only Shahna, Kelinda and Deela were examples of him romancing for other reasons...

He was pretty cold in how he "romanced" Lenore, taking advantage of a supposed teenager. And he even acted a bit flirtatious with Miri, which was rather creepy (not sure how old Kim Darby was at that time, but she must have been at least several years older than Miri's assumed age).

There was also an element of insincerity to how he treated Mirror-Marlena, like he really didn't want to but realized he had to, in order to keep her loyalty.

Funny when you think that Droxine was oblivious to Kirk's charms because she was drawn to Spock! Even her Father thought she was smitten with Jimmy boy!
JB

The same happened with Dax. Sisko thought she liked Kirk, but it was Spock who really intrigued her.

I've just remembered another potential TNG dig at TOS. When Picard mentions he attended the wedding of Sarek's son but didn't mention Spock by name I read that earlier on in TNG the writers were told not to mention the TOS cast at all in any TNG episodes. That order was rescinded a bit later obviously in later seasons of TNG when they were perhaps a bit more secure..
OK its not much of a dig but seems silly now. And yes maybe it wasn't Spock who was getting married but really who else could it have been. Unless it was another one of Sarek's secret sons who was associated with Starfleet.

More to the point, who did "Sarek's son" marry? Fans tend to assume it was Saavik, but it could have been anyone. And what happened to this wife when Spock took off to Romulus?

Sela didn't seemed to be that much interested in Spock's secrets anyway.

Spock's secrets would have had long words in them, and Sela doesn't like long words.

However, if you really want insulting comments about the past all you have to do is look at TNG season one. The one that sticks out most for me is Riker's dismissive attitude towards 20th century humans in the episode, Neutral Zone.

Absolutely. That was reprehensible. Even Deanna didn't really seem to care much about them and only helped the woman so she'd stop being a nuisance. Picard seemed to think that putting them all in a room with a replicator so they'd have food and water would be enough... like they were a bunch of very inconvenient and not very intelligent stray animals.

 

[Lord Garth]

Is meeting Leonardo da Vinci any more or less likely than meeting Abraham Lincoln or Surak of Vulcan? After all, Surak lived thousands of years in the past.

Or what about Zephram Cochrane? Flint isn't the only person from the past Kirk met and promised not to tell anyone about.

You're preaching to the choir. I was making a joke at the hypothetical admiral's expense, not Kirk's.

 

[Timewalker]

You're preaching to the choir. I was making a joke at the hypothetical admiral's expense, not Kirk's.

I'm not preaching to anyone. I'm just expressing my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Can somebody fix my post above and take out all the "size=" ?

 

[Timewalker]

Can somebody fix my post above and take out all the "size=" ?

Report your post and include your request. A mod will probably see it much sooner.

Or you can edit the post yourself. It's a bit tricky to get that ridiculous formatting out (I did manage it with one of my own posts, but don't remember exactly what I did).

 

[Herbert]

Can somebody fix my post above and take out all the "size=" ?

I thought size= doesn't matter?

Spoiler

 

[Mytran]

Here's all the references to the 23rd century:
The Outrageous Okona - Stano Riga, who "specialised in jokes about quantum mathematics."
Violations - Iresine Syndrome, first diagnosed that century
If Wishes Were Horses - subspace rupture in the Hanoli System in the mid twenty third century.
Trials and Tribble-ations - Dax likes the 23rd century designs of tricorders, etc; by the end of the 23rd century, tribbles had become extinct from their homeworld
Flashback - Hikaru Sulu doesn't resemble his Starfleet HQ portrait because "holographic imaging resolution was less accurate."
Cause and Effect - Bateson thinks it's still 2278.

How does that look? Just copy & paste

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Thanks.