Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[Commishsleer]

Relics is an insult. Poor Geordi having to put up with Scott when he's got 'portant things to do.

I suppose Unification is too. Spock being tricked and having to have Picard rescue him.
Spock being that bad of course that his own father prefers Picard to him.
What business is of Starfleet what Spock's doing anyway? Surely he doesn't know any current Starfleet secrets.
I suppose he can tell the Romulans how to go back in time but whats Starfleet to do - lock him in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life?

 

[johnnybear]

Later Trek did a good job of treating TOS as part of their history, but no more and no less than any other part of history. This helped make things believable. I did get the impression,though, that they were underwhelmed by TOS and thought they were making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or something. Maybe they had to do that for believability. If they'd heaped praise on the characters and missions of TOS, it would have narrowed the Trek universe a little. I can't think how to explain what I mean by that...
---
The first mention of Kirk I remember is when Kira? read out some account of his discovery of the mirror universe, and Bashir says "Oh yes, the transporter accident!" Suggesting this one event is the only thing Kirk is popularly known for! That's much more satisfying than for Bashir's eyes to fill with wonder as he goes on about how amazing Kirk was!

More proof then that DSC is not in this universe as if Bashir knows about Kirk's trip into the Mirror Universe then why doesn't he know about the Discovery's? I mean that would be ninety years ago and yet...
JB

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Maybe they had to do that for believability. If they'd heaped praise on the characters and missions of TOS, it would have narrowed the Trek universe a little. I can't think how to explain what I mean by that...

If everybody loved Kirk, they'd come off as TOS fan avatars, not actual people admiring a historical figure.

It would've been interesting to see them heap praise on some totally made-up for the show captain from Kirk's era, talking about all the great stuff they did - without having the inevitable let-down episode where the person is revealed to be a bum in the end when they finally meet them.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The first mention of Kirk I remember is when Kira? read out some account of his discovery of the mirror universe, and Bashir says "Oh yes, the transporter accident!" Suggesting this one event is the only thing Kirk is popularly known for! That's much more satisfying than for Bashir's eyes to fill with wonder as he goes on about how amazing Kirk was!

I did like how Kira had never heard of Kirk when the Intendant brought up his name. After all, why should a Bajoran Major know who a random Starfleet Captain from 100 years ago is?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Here's all the other references I found:

Kirk:
* The Sword of Kahless: Worf mentions Kor's "confrontation with Kirk on Organia" as one of the stories he's heard aout a man he clearly admires.
*These Are the Voyages...: Riker mentions Kirk's ship having science station viewers. (technically, that's the Enterprise, not Kirk himself, but they're identifying it as his ship, as opposed to Pike's or April's)

Spock:
*Lower Decks - Ben the waiter thinks Ambassador Spock was in the escape pod, and says he heard it from somebody who he can't divulge.
*Endgame - Tuvok quotes Spock: "To quote Ambassador Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

McCoy:
*Lifesigns - The Doctor does a procedure McCoy developed pre-TOS.
*Message in a Bottle - McCoy's textbook is mentioned as a classic.

Sulu:
*Tattoo - "Captain Sulu" sponsors Chakotay (though whether it's TOS Hikaru or not is up for debate)

No mentions for Scotty, Uhura, or Chekov (aside from a ship which may or may not be named after Pavel in "The Best of Both Worlds, part II". )

 

[The Old Mixer]

Spock: In your own way, you are as stubborn as another captain of the Enterprise I once knew.
Picard: Then I'm in good company, sir.

 

[Jayson1]

Well we got PIcard attending Spock's wedding when he was younger.
TNG had a transporter chief named Kelso who I think was related to the Kelso who Gary MItchell kills in the second TOS pilot.

Jason

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well we got PIcard attending Spock's wedding when he was younger.
TNG had a transporter chief named Kelso who I think was related to the Kelso who Gary MItchell kills in the second TOS pilot.

Jason

The wedding of Sarek's son.

Which will probably be a new, even-more-famous son they'll reveal in one of the new series' but never mentioned before

 

[The Wormhole]

McCoy: Damn it, Spock. You never mentioned you had a younger brother.
Spock: I never mentioned my older brother or sister either.
McCoy: Sister, what sister?
Awkward silence.
McCoy: So ah, get a load of that young officer grinning at your dad like an idiot.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The wedding of Sarek's son.

Which will probably be a new, even-more-famous son they'll reveal in one of the new series' but never mentioned before

It was Michael's wedding. The name confuses people.

 

[Vger23]

Relics is an insult. Poor Geordi having to put up with Scott when he's got 'portant things to do.

I suppose Unification is too. Spock being tricked and having to have Picard rescue him.
Spock being that bad of course that his own father prefers Picard to him.
What business is of Starfleet what Spock's doing anyway? Surely he doesn't know any current Starfleet secrets.
I suppose he can tell the Romulans how to go back in time but whats Starfleet to do - lock him in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life?

Picard lecturing Spock in that episode is the ultimate example of how arrogant and self-righteous the Picard character actually was.

 

[Greg Cox]

Picard lecturing Spock in that episode is the ultimate example of how arrogant and self-righteous the Picard character actually was.

Honestly, that didn't bother me. You want some conflict between the characters or where's the drama? I didn't see that as a dig at TOS as much as believable way to generate some sparks.

 

[thribs]

Different mentalities of the captains. Kirk saw the Prime Directive as a guideline while Picard saw it as a strict rule.

 

[Vger23]

Honestly, that didn't bother me. You want some conflict between the characters or where's the drama? I didn't see that as a dig at TOS as much as believable way to generate some sparks.

Yeah, it's weird that it just never sat well with me. Even as a kid watching that first run, the imagery immediately came into my head of a little yapping mutt gnawing on the ankle of an NFL offensive lineman. I just never saw Picard as someone with the gravitas or credibility to challenge a character like Spock in that way, and the "cowboy diplomacy" line always felt like a dig.

 

[UnknownSample]

Actually, no one looked good in Reunification. Spock as some symbol of cowboy diplomacy? Someone here talked about Berman Trek characterizing TOS characters as pop culture sees them, not as they were onscreen... But Spock himself here was a muttering empty shell, with no political or diplomatic ideas besides "Let's be nice and get along". Reunification how? Would Riomulans join the UFP, or would Vulcan leave it? Are the two planets anywhere close to each other? Whose culture and morality will be overhauled, in this union?
---------------------
Picard actually seems like the only heavyweight with authority to criticize here, since Spock is a sort of empty shell here, with vague Pollyanna-ish ideas. Picard seems to go the other way though, saying Spock's reckless.
---------------------

 

[MacLeod]

When we look back at histori

Relics - What about this exchange?

SCOTT: Look at the momentum distribution of the ions. It would take an impulse engine at full reverse to put out a signature like that.
LAFORGE: So they didn't go in willingly. This looks like some kind of communications array.
SCOTT: Aye. We found hundreds of them when we did our initial survey seventy five years ago.
LAFORGE: Did you try hailing them?
SCOTT: Aye. That was standard procedure at the time. We did it right before we crashed.
LAFORGE: Hailing is standard procedure today, too.

Scotty, upon learning that nearly everything else has changed, wonders if maybe something other than hailing first is now the new normal.

Or you could look at it as LaForge not knowing how long this hailing thing has been "standard procedure", after all surely he would have been in a better position to know that hailing was standard procedure even back then and maybe ask "What happened when you hailed them?"

 

[Commishsleer]

Actually, no one looked good in Reunification. Spock as some symbol of cowboy diplomacy? Someone here talked about Berman Trek characterizing TOS characters as pop culture sees them, not as they were onscreen... But Spock himself here was a muttering empty shell, with no political or diplomatic ideas besides "Let's be nice and get along". Reunification how? Would Riomulans join the UFP, or would Vulcan leave it? Are the two planets anywhere close to each other? Whose culture and morality will be overhauled, in this union?
---------------------
Picard actually seems like the only heavyweight with authority to criticize here, since Spock is a sort of empty shell here, with vague Pollyanna-ish ideas. Picard seems to go the other way though, saying Spock's reckless.
---------------------

Still what business was it of Picard?

If Spock wanted to be a missionary then why did Picard think he had the right to judge.

Wasn't Spock trying to star a peaceful revolution? He never said he wanted the Romulans to be exactly like Vulcans. I don't think Spock of all people would think or want that. Anything seems better than the dull existence on Romulus as shown in Reunification.

Another example in TNG as a dig at TOS if you're really paranoid is when Riker (I think it might have been Beverley though) tried to get Picard to go on leave. Kirk fell for it when Spock tried it in Shore Leave but Picard didn't.. Showing Picards way smarter than Kirk.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

The wedding of Sarek's son.

Which will probably be a new, even-more-famous son they'll reveal in one of the new series' but never mentioned before

Cue: some calm musical track...

Before Spock...

...Before Michael...

... Before Sybok...

... There was...

Mybock. Son of Sarek and some random Andorian he married during his tenure as ambassador to Andoria. Sarek isn't really a lover of humanity... just an insatiable xenophile

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mybock, he's now in your head canon and won't leave.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Still what business was it of Picard?

It was his assignment, given to him by an admiral. Picard wasn't there doing his own thing, he was officially representing Starfleet and the Federation. Spock, by contrast, had "gone rogue".