Disney Scraps Plans For Further Star Wars Storys

[Kibbin]

It's been a long time since I was that young, I want a little more from my fiction these days.

Good for you. Comics are or were aimed at kids/teens with some overlap into the adult market. My point still stands. Just because he is not wish fulfillment for you doesn't mean he isn't wish fulfillment.

Except how he can speak any language, can drive or pilot any vehicle, is master of any weapon, can use any device he's never seen before, is a mineralogist, botanist, economist, geologist, specialist historian and sociologist for any place he visits and basically has a mastery of any skill he ever needs...but let's be honest, as writers go Flemming was not Chaucer.

I'd disagree with some of the prose but agree with you on the characterization and plotting. But there's no point trying to disprove my mary sue argument by saying it also applies to Bond when I have used him as an example of a mary sue in this very thread.

Which by your definition is bad writing.

There are many ways in which Moffat writing is bad writing. I.M.O

I think you are making sense and different people are going to have different points of view. But, again I think the issue is more with Kylo than with Rey. Their fight is not the only place where Kylo is shown to be relatively weak. I think it can all be justified or explained away, but he seems like the high-school nerd getting berated by a teacher, a football player and the pretty girl that sits in front of him. It's not clear how he jumps from "punching bag" to "supreme-leader" so fast.

Anyway, there is more than one way to criticize some of the happenings. Certainly, it's not flawless.

I see where your coming from but whether we place the blame at Rey's feet or Kylo's the end is still poor writing. I have never held this argument up as some girls vs boys thing but as trying to make a point about poor writing in a movie. A movie written by a man, directed by a man, starring overwhelmingly men. If we were to boil this down this is still a male dominated franchise it's just poorly written. Though considering the prequels whose to say that is a change.

Right.

Why is explaining this even necessary? Was it necessary to explain how Luke could learn to fly a T-16? Why can't we just take it in stride, like Maz, and say: "A good question, for another time."? Expect tie-ins and other spin-offs to address this; Forces of Destiny has shown us a few adventures from Rey's life as a scavenger.

Because if you are not going to set the rules for your universe then where is the danger. If you can pull out any thing you want at a moments notice there is little suspense. The more fantastical your setting the more you need to set your ground rules. Why didn't Dumbledore just teleport Voldemort into the sun? Why did Gandalf not just shoot Sauron in the face with a lightning bolt? You need to establish what we can do and what we can't. If your plot is going to hinge on the fact then it is all the more important.

I was going to respond to this earlier, but Kylo Ren is not a Sith.... and neither is Snoke.

Okay I've got to ask. Why are they not Sith? What about them says not a Sith? If you want to say that Kylo in TFA isn't a sith because he isn't fully trained under Soak yet then fine. But why is Soak not a Sith? And please tell me it's not because they just don't use the Darth title. If it is I would call this splitting hairs.

Yet Luke hopped in an X-Wing which he had never flown, outperformed every other pilot that was there, completely out flew Vader who was trying to destroy him and channeled the Force to destroy the Death Star.

That's different!!!!!

Don't ask me how.

I've said it before and I'm going to say it again. Luke didn't outfly that many people in the battle of Yavin. A bit of fancy flying when it came to dog fight sure. But as soon as he hits the trench run where it matters he has two meat shields flying behind him and Han sweeping in to save the day. Did his flying play some part of this. Yes. Did the force. Yes. The thing is he didn't do it all himself which is the problem people are having with Rey.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Why did Gandalf not just shoot Sauron in the face with a lightning bolt? You need to establish what we can do and what we can't. If your plot is going to hinge on the fact then it is all the more important.

Where in The Lord of the Rings did Tolkien establish why Gandalf didn't just do that?

Did his flying play some part of this. Yes. Did the force. Yes. The thing is he didn't do it all himself which is the problem people are having with Rey.

Did you miss my post where I made the exact point that Rey wasn't doing it all by herself either, but rather the Force was playing a major part too in what she did? Because I actually made that exact point already!

Here you go: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/dis...star-wars-storys.294649/page-32#post-12515692

 

[Kibbin]

Where in The Lord of the Rings did Tolkien establish why Gandalf didn't just do that?


Did you miss my post where I made the exact point that Rey wasn't doing it all by herself either, but rather the Force was playing a major part too in what she did? Because I actually made that exact point already!

Here you go: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/dis...star-wars-storys.294649/page-32#post-12515692

Because he did not set up precedent and thus could not play it off at the end. He didn't do it because he didn't metaphorically load the gun earlier in the story. That's my point.
And saying Rey didn't do it herself the force helped her is a cop out. I'm saying Luke didn't do it himself he had help off x,y and z you are saying Rey didn't do it herself she had magic to help her.
If magic can bump you up that far then you need to let people know it can do that before it happens. You need to load the gun before you can fire it.

 

[Spot261]

Good for you. Comics are or were aimed at kids/teens with some overlap into the adult market. My point still stands. Just because he is not wish fulfillment for you doesn't mean he isn't wish fulfillment.

A Mary Sue is wish fulfilment on the part of the author, not the reader. More importantly it is wish fulfilment in the form of an idealised self insert. The character is supposed to essentially be the author as they see themselves sans faults and foibles. I can't think of a single comic author who could make a reasonable claim to be placing themselves on the page when they write Wolverine, nor does he remotely fulfil the more prosaic (and incorrect) criteria of "perfect" character.

And I'm not sure comics are really aimed at teens these days.

I'd disagree with some of the prose but agree with you on the characterization and plotting. But there's no point trying to disprove my mary sue argument by saying it also applies to Bond when I have used him as an example of a mary sue in this very thread.

Yet also used him as an example of someone where skill sets are set up in advance and foreshadowed, which is exactly the opposite of what he is famous for.

There are many ways in which Moffat writing is bad writing. I.M.O

I was talking about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. By your definition, his writing was poor.

 

[Spot261]

Because he did not set up precedent and thus could not play it off at the end. He didn't do it because he didn't metaphorically load the gun earlier in the story. That's my point.
And saying Rey didn't do it herself the force helped her is a cop out. I'm saying Luke didn't do it himself he had help off x,y and z you are saying Rey didn't do it herself she had magic to help her.
If magic can bump you up that far then you need to let people know it can do that before it happens. You need to load the gun before you can fire it.

Just utterly and categorically "nope", sorry.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Because he did not set up precedent and thus could not play it off at the end. He didn't do it because he didn't metaphorically load the gun earlier in the story. That's my point.

That literally makes no sense. In addition, that doesn't indicate an understanding of Gandalf, the role he played in Middle-earth, and what was discussed and established about him and Sauron in TLotR vs what was discussed and established about them both in The Silmarillion.

And saying Rey didn't do it herself the force helped her is a cop out. I'm saying Luke didn't do it himself he had help off x,y and z you are saying Rey didn't do it herself she had magic to help her.
If magic can bump you up that far then you need to let people know it can do that before it happens. You need to load the gun before you can fire it.

I'm pretty sure that I mentioned Rey getting help from other characters, like Finn and for that matter Kylo Ren himself who wasn't actually trying to kill Rey.

Anyway, Rey isn't more magical than other magical characters already shown. When there are already magical beings running around in your universe, you don't need to explain why there's one more.

No one explained Yoda. For that matter, no one explained Anakin's birth, certainly not in The Phantom Menace. For all anyone knew, he was simply magically conceived by the Force. Canonically, his conception is still not certain, AFAIK.

 

[BillJ]

You need to load the gun before you can fire it.

The gun was loaded in A New Hope. I don't need it loaded over and over again.

 

[DigificWriter]

Kylo and Snoke aren't Sith because they don't follow the tenets and precepts of the Sith religion.

I'm surprised this has to be said when we've had nearly a decade of it being established, but not all light-side Force users are Jedi, and not all dark-side Force users are Sith.

 

[BillJ]

I've said it before and I'm going to say it again. Luke didn't outfly that many people in the battle of Yavin. A bit of fancy flying when it came to dog fight sure. But as soon as he hits the trench run where it matters he has two meat shields flying behind him and Han sweeping in to save the day. Did his flying play some part of this. Yes. Did the force. Yes. The thing is he didn't do it all himself which is the problem people are having with Rey.

Have you ever wondered why Luke wasn't the meat shield? Being the most inexperienced pilot, a meat shield is exactly what he should have been.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kylo and Snoke aren't Sith because they don't follow the tenets and precepts of the Sith religion.

In fairness, the films are less than clear about this. The only thing that is spelled out, IIRC, is that in TLJ, Kylo Ren says that they should let the Sith die along with the Jedi. That does not itself imply that Kylo Ren was not Sith, especially since he'd just killed his former master. For all we know, killing Snoke was when Ren broke with the Sith religion. I'm not saying it is, because I accept that the Sith ended with Sidious' death. I'm just saying that you have to go outside the films to find this stuff out; I'm not specifically familiar with what's going on in Aftermath: Empire's End, though.

 

[Campe]

Have you ever wondered why Luke wasn't the meat shield? Being the most inexperienced pilot, a meat shield is exactly what he should have been.

A billion times this. Realistically, he would not have survived Yavin. But, hey, its okay, because we got told he was a good pilot.

 

[DigificWriter]

In fairness, the films are less than clear about this. The only thing that is spelled out, IIRC, is that in TLJ, Kylo Ren says that they should let the Sith die along with the Jedi. That does not itself imply that Kylo Ren was not Sith, especially since he'd just killed his former master. For all we know, killing Snoke was when Ren broke with the Sith religion. I'm not saying it is, because I accept that the Sith ended with Sidious' death. I'm just saying that you have to go outside the films to find this stuff out; I'm not specifically familiar with what's going on in Aftermath: Empire's End, though.

Offscreen or not, it is official Canon that Kylo and Snoke are not Sith.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Have you ever wondered why Luke wasn't the meat shield? Being the most inexperienced pilot, a meat shield is exactly what he should have been.

I have, and I have a possible explanation.

The battle plan was to let the computer control the targeting. That meant that letting the least experienced pilot go in front gave the formation the best chance of success, assuming that experience is positively correlated with ability.

Presumably, Red Leader would have known that when he ordered Luke to lead the third and final attempt. Each wave has a different structure. The Gold wave of Y-wings was jacked because the Y-wings were too close together and the TIEs could close in on all of them at once. The first Red wave corrected this by having the wingmen stay back. Red Leader's last orders set up what he judged to be the best chance of success based on his experience. Presumably, it was to give the best chance of repeating what he'd just done to get another shot.

The actual answer is of course that Luke was the hero, all other logical considerations be damned. But I think it's intriguing that the explanation given here makes sense; it's a testament to how well-conceived the story was.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Offscreen or not, it is official Canon that Kylo and Snoke are not Sith.

Yep, I believe I agreed with that.

 

[Campe]

I have, and I have a possible explanation.

The battle plan was to let the computer control the targeting. That meant that letting the least experienced pilot go in front gave the formation the best chance of success, assuming that experience is positively correlated with ability.

Presumably, Red Leader would have known that when ordered Luke to lead the third and final attempt. Each wave has a different structure. The Gold wave of Y-wings was jacked because the Y-wings were too close together and the TIEs could close in on all of them at once. The first Red wave corrected this by having the wingmen stay back. Red Leader's last orders set up what he judged to be the best chance of success based on his experience. Presumably, it was to give the best chance of repeating what he'd just done to get another shot.

The actual answer is of course that Luke was the hero, all other logical considerations be damned. But I think it's intriguing that the explanation given here makes sense; it's a testament to how well-conceived the story was.

You're right about the computer control for the trench run. But what about before that? Luke successfully partook in space combat with no experience (that we know of), except for flying through Beggar's Canyon shooting womprats. And I don't think the womprats were shooting turbolasers back at him. Why would he live when 27 other experienced Rebel pilots got shot down before him?

Makes no sense. Unless there's some mystical, magical energy field that he was able to pull from that he only learned of, like, a day before, and had a few hours training while travelling. Hmmm.

 

[mos6507]

Luke successfully partook in space combat with no experience (that we know of), except for flying through Beggar's Canyon shooting womprats.

OK, time for some common-sense...

The first Star Wars movie was never expected to launch a franchise. Lucas had contingencies for it but by the end of shooting he was thinking it was a disaster. So the plot-arc for Luke demanded that he score a big win despite still being in the novice phase of the Hero's Journey.

Also note that rather than simply give Luke the goal, so to speak, one of the other rebel pilots manages to almost lob one down the shaft. So the film doesn't invalidate the skills of the other pilots. They still had a fighting chance to destroy the Death Star over Luke.

Also note that Luke goes through a fair amount of emotional turmoil in SW, although the film sort of glosses over his likely PTSD, namely coming back to see Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's smoldering corpses, and then losing Ben.

So when we're talking about Mary Sue, it's a matter of degree, and Rey, in comparison to Luke, merely coasts her way through obstacles in The Force Awakens. This is mostly JJs fault as he did much the same thing with Pine's Kirk. Kirk was "destined" to captain the Enterprise and so the first Trek film sort of ushered him to the captain's chair ridiculously fast. He sort of mis-reads the whole "chosen one" thing to the level where the movie feels like watching a videogame on easy-mode.

 

[Campe]

OK, time for some common-sense...

Well, why should we start that now?

So when we're talking about Mary Sue, it's a matter of degree, and Rey, in comparison to Luke, merely coasts her way through obstacles in The Force Awakens. This is mostly JJs fault as he did much the same thing with Pine's Kirk. Kirk was "destined" to captain the Enterprise and so the first Trek film sort of ushered him to the captain's chair ridiculously fast. He sort of mis-reads the whole "chosen one" thing to the level where the movie feels like watching a videogame on easy-mode.

The point that has been made here is that there's hypocrisy around the idea that Rey is a Mary Sue when Luke isn't. Sorry, but if you're going to use that moniker on one, you have to put it on both, particularly during ANH for Luke. Using common sense ( ), there is no way that Luke can do what he does with his level of knowledge, experience, PTSD from losing his aunt, uncle and mentor in the course of a day. The man would be on the floor in a puddle, not saving the Rebel Alliance. Yes, Rey is in the same boat. I will admit that. So, when you make the reference to the hero’s journey (which can be applied to Luke OR Rey), yes, shortcuts are taken in both stories. We’ve been over that in this thread.

We also live in a world where we have shorter attention spans than we did 40 years ago. If we’re talking about a franchise where much of these things are already spelled out for us, we don’t need it spelled out again. There is enough evidence presented in TFA for me (and others) to accept that Rey can do the things she does. Combat. Check. She’s learned hand to hand regarding defense on Jakku. Pilot. She says she’s a pilot. (So did Luke, so don’t give me any of that.) The only questionable things she does is the mind trick and pulling the lightsaber. At this point, though, something awoke in her. She touched the lightsaber and everything changed. She even admits to Finn that even if she told him how she escaped on Starkiller, he wouldn’t believe her. She’s incredulous over it. There’s something more to Rey. We know that. There's more to this story that the film seems to be asking, not like it "asked" about Snoke, not like it "asked" about Rey's parents, but a real, honest to God mystery around Rey. If that makes her a Mary Sue, fine, but Luke pulled some miracles out of his ass too. We can't ignore that.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

There is no way that Rey's parents are nobodies. If they were, there would be no need to mention it. I hope whatever truth is revealed surpasses "No, I am your Father", and does not turn out to be a groaner like seeing an ape at Lincoln's Memorial.

 

[Campe]

There is no way that Rey's parents are nobodies. If they were, there would be no need to mention it. I hope whatever truth is revealed surpasses "No, I am your Father", and does not turn out to be a groaner like seeing an ape at Lincoln's Memorial.

Well, there's no way that Anakin was conceived by midichlorians, either. But here we are.

 

[Trekkin]

There is no way that Rey's parents are nobodies. If they were, there would be no need to mention it. I hope whatever truth is revealed surpasses "No, I am your Father", and does not turn out to be a groaner like seeing an ape at Lincoln's Memorial.

Anakin’s mother is a ‘nobody.’ She only ‘matters,’ because she matters to Anakin.

Got subplots in two movies, and a cartoon cameo.

Then there’s the Lars’s...