Disney Scraps Plans For Further Star Wars Storys

[Marynator]

Rey's had one of the most tragic things happen to her that could happen to a person: she learned her parents never cared about her and just discarded her. Luke never had anything so awful happen to him at all. She'd have an easier time accepting if her parents had died or if she was taken from them, but nope they just didn't love her, and that's really horrible and heartbreaking. She's also learned so many disappointments, her myths and dreams were such major letdowns.

I keep seeing people call her a Mary Sue, and really I do believe you're using the wrong word. @Spot261 totally gets that better, and a few others, but a Mary Sue is an author inserting herself into a story as wish fulfillment.

Reading this thread, to me much complaint about her really seems to be thinly veiled outrage that a female could accomplish these things she does. So what if she caught on to the force faster than Luke? Why can't she? Luke got it really super quick with nearly no training, but no one complained .. only real difference is he has man parts. We've seen before in this universe people can rise in power very quickly indeed, so really why can't she do these things? Complaining and whining about it is just such a tired refrain when feeling threatened by an over-achieving woman. You can deny all you want, but that's totally what you sound like.

Starsuperion keeps claiming his objections have nothing to do with gender or race, but he keeps slipping up and revealing his real feelings, like complaining how the Empire/First Order is all white males. Well really that's what it's supposed to be, right? Star Wars has always been a metaphor the women's movement, that's why even in the first movie Leia is the leader and driving things. Men are helping of course, but the Empire has always represented the Patriarchy and violent seizure of power at the expense of women and minorities. Even like in Solo you can see this theme continuing, with the Rebellion being started by a woman, you might understand more when you can look at perspectives other than what's best for Imperial/white male dominance. So of course Luke couldn't solve everything, it has to be Rey to complete this story, it always had to be her.

Complaints about movie success and failures being about increased diversity really make no sense to me in even the slightest. Even just like this line of talking is an example of white male privilege, how quickly you are to blame women and minorities for their identity but never white men for who they are. Like look at what you're saying:

Force Awakens - Female lead, financial & critical success
Rogue One - Female lead, financial & critical success
Last Jedi - Female lead, financial & critical success
Solo - White male lead, financial disaster

OMG women are ruining Star Wars! How do you even get to this? Some made up thing about fallout? If you're looking at a pattern, why wouldn't your natural conclusion be that audiences don't want a white male lead in their Star Wars films, since that's your outlier here? Because if a man fails it's always something else, but if a woman fail's it's because she's a woman. And no woman even failed here, but a movie about a male lead fails and somehow it's still women who are at fault.

 

[Campe]

I personally have done my best to ignore the Mary Sue argument, as I find it quite ridiculous.

 

[Spot261]

Rey's had one of the most tragic things happen to her that could happen to a person: she learned her parents never cared about her and just discarded her. Luke never had anything so awful happen to him at all. She'd have an easier time accepting if her parents had died or if she was taken from them, but nope they just didn't love her, and that's really horrible and heartbreaking. She's also learned so many disappointments, her myths and dreams were such major letdowns.

I keep seeing people call her a Mary Sue, and really I do believe you're using the wrong word. @Spot261 totally gets that better, and a few others, but a Mary Sue is an author inserting herself into a story as wish fulfillment.

Reading this thread, to me much complaint about her really seems to be thinly veiled outrage that a female could accomplish these things she does. So what if she caught on to the force faster than Luke? Why can't she? Luke got it really super quick with nearly no training, but no one complained .. only real difference is he has man parts. We've seen before in this universe people can rise in power very quickly indeed, so really why can't she do these things? Complaining and whining about it is just such a tired refrain when feeling threatened by an over-achieving woman. You can deny all you want, but that's totally what you sound like.

Starsuperion keeps claiming his objections have nothing to do with gender or race, but he keeps slipping up and revealing his real feelings, like complaining how the Empire/First Order is all white males. Well really that's what it's supposed to be, right? Star Wars has always been a metaphor the women's movement, that's why even in the first movie Leia is the leader and driving things. Men are helping of course, but the Empire has always represented the Patriarchy and violent seizure of power at the expense of women and minorities. Even like in Solo you can see this theme continuing, with the Rebellion being started by a woman, you might understand more when you can look at perspectives other than what's best for Imperial/white male dominance. So of course Luke couldn't solve everything, it has to be Rey to complete this story, it always had to be her.

Complaints about movie success and failures being about increased diversity really make no sense to me in even the slightest. Even just like this line of talking is an example of white male privilege, how quickly you are to blame women and minorities for their identity but never white men for who they are. Like look at what you're saying:

Force Awakens - Female lead, financial & critical success
Rogue One - Female lead, financial & critical success
Last Jedi - Female lead, financial & critical success
Solo - White male lead, financial disaster

OMG women are ruining Star Wars! How do you even get to this? Some made up thing about fallout? If you're looking at a pattern, why wouldn't your natural conclusion be that audiences don't want a white male lead in their Star Wars films, since that's your outlier here? Because if a man fails it's always something else, but if a woman fail's it's because she's a woman. And no woman even failed here, but a movie about a male lead fails and somehow it's still women who are at fault.

Apparently I can only like this once.

That's a real shame.

 

[BillJ]

Luke never had anything so awful happen to him at all.

Well, he found the people who raised him turned crispy fried. That is pretty awful.

 

[Marynator]

Well, he found the people who raised him turned crispy fried. That is pretty awful.

Yes, but being actively rejected by your parents is worse, like I said it's one thing if your parents die, but to reject you is soul-crushing on a totally different level.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, but being actively rejected by your parents is worse, like I said it's one thing if your parents die...

They just didn't "die", they were violently murdered.

 

[Marynator]

They just didn't "die", they were violently murdered.

Oh yes that's truly awful, they died very gruesomely, and Luke loved them very much and they loved him, but I'm not sure if you're understanding what I'm saying? I don't know if there's really anything more traumatic to happen to you than knowing your parents (and especially your mother) don't love you and never loved you, that's supposed to be your most guaranteed relationship in life, and I really do feel being rejected by your parents is worse than seeing them killed when they loved you.

 

[Campe]

Yes, but being actively rejected by your parents is worse, like I said it's one thing if your parents die, but to reject you is soul-crushing on a totally different level.

I'm not trying to minimize Rey's pain, but I think both being rejected by your parents and finding those you love burnt to a crisp are pretty terrible things. I wouldn't wish either upon anyone.

 

[Marynator]

I'm not trying to minimize Rey's pain, but I think both being rejected by your parents and finding those you love burnt to a crisp are pretty terrible things. I wouldn't wish either upon anyone.

Oh no of course neither would I! But I do believe some traumas can be worse, and losing a loved one in my view isn't as emotionally devastating as a loved one rejecting you, especially your parents who are supposed to love you unconditionally and would die to protect you, for them to just toss you aside like garbage has to tear out your heart completely. If your parents died, even horribly like say Harry Potter, at least you can hold on to their love and remember them fondly and everything, but what do you have when your parents don't want you?

 

[Campe]

Oh no of course neither would I! But I do believe some traumas can be worse, and losing a loved one in my view isn't as emotionally devastating as a loved one rejecting you, especially your parents who are supposed to love you unconditionally and would die to protect you, for them to just toss you aside like garbage has to tear out your heart completely. If your parents died, even horribly like say Harry Potter, at least you can hold on to their love and remember them fondly and everything, but what do you have when your parents don't want you?

We all have different world views. The honest to God truth is: I don't know how I would react. My parents are still around, still present in my life, and have always treated me with love. My sister and I have struggled for many years in our relationship and while I feel sometimes that I am being rejected, I know she does love me. She just has strange ways of showing it. Regardless, both Luke and Rey's reaction to their traumas are minimized onscreen. Both within a few scenes of their meltdowns are fully functioning outside of a survival instinct. Let's be honest, most of us would be sobbing in the fetal position for days if not weeks if we had to accept either of these truths. While Luke had to respond to it immediately, Rey did not face it (that we know of) until Ben forced her to make that realization. Was she in denial they would come back since childhood? Probably. Because its a reality she didn't want to face.

I'm sure, regardless, that both have scars from their initial journeys. In the course of a few days, Luke has his aunt and uncle brutally murdered, gains and then loses a mentor, and his childhood best friend dies protecting him. Rey on the other hand leaves home, loses a mentor, sees a new friend cut down, is rejected by a new mentor, to whom she really has no attachment to and comes to the realization that her parents rejected her. Again, that's a lot. And it depends on your worldview as to which really is more affecting. Neither is wrong. They're just both pretty terrible.

 

[EnderAKH]

Rey's parents discarded and rejected her, Luke's parental figures were violently murdered. As I understand it from fiction, one sends you into an existential crisis, the other turns you into a superhero.

 

[Kibbin]

I keep seeing people say that Mary Sue is a term only thrown at female characters. I want to say that when I was a wee nerdling and first heard this term the go to example everyone used to explain it was Wes Crusher from early tng. Since then we've had lots of people complaining that Wolverine is a mary sue in the comics(I think they dialled him back before he died) also Bond is another one that I hear a bit depending on which movie/ actor/ era you're talking about.
Also people are saying that she can't be a mary sue because she isn't a direct representation of JJ in TFA. Okay so she doesn't check every box on the list but if enough of them are crossed off it seems more prudent to just label her as such for sake of pedanticism.

 

[suarezguy]

While that is true, I am talking solely on the merits of ANH, where there was no mention in the slightest about needing some special Force potential needed, no familial relations, nothing. You put in the work, you believed in yourself, and It allowed for the audience members, particularly those who are young, to say, "Hey, Luke Skywalker saved the Rebellion. He's pretty special. I can be something special!" That's a cool and really important message for kids to have!

I guess the first film did suggest all that was necessary to be strong in the Force was to believe in and actually trust in it but it was pretty vague how and why that worked, why a surrounding energy/life field would give particular powers and abilities at all or do so because it was believed in. Or even why so few people did believe in it despite the Jedi with those abilities once having been around (the Jedi were probably originally intended to be few in number and, regardless, their defeat was widely seen as invalidating them).
Although actually even in the first film it's suggested the Rebels generally do believe in the Force (the general says May the Force be with you to all the pilots) but aren't trying to develop skill in it-so maybe anyone can become a Jedi but only if they get specific instructions and training from a Jedi.

 

[Campe]

I guess the first film did suggest all that was necessary to be strong in the Force was to believe in and actually trust in it but it was pretty vague how and why that worked, why a surrounding energy/life field would give particular powers and abilities at all or do so because it was believed in. Or even why so few people did believe in it despite the Jedi with those abilities once having been around (the Jedi were probably originally intended to be few in number and, regardless, their defeat was widely seen as invalidating them).
Although actually even in the first film it's suggested the Rebels generally do believe in the Force (the general says May the Force be with you to all the pilots) but aren't trying to develop skill in it-so maybe anyone can become a Jedi but only if they get specific instructions and training from a Jedi.

As a standalone film, which in 1977 was all that Star Wars really was, it doesn't need all of the why. It just needs to be. I feel like an important message in the ST, and all of Disney's Star Wars is that the Force just needs to be. Which is why we now have different people who can access the Force in different ways, but aren't Jedi. It makes what may have become a little over-explained simplified again. At the same time, we’re given more stuff: Force Skype, The World Between Worlds from Rebels, many other things.

That’s why I really do like what Disney is doing with Star Wars. There’s something for everyone. If you’re open to it.

 

[Marynator]

We all have different world views. The honest to God truth is: I don't know how I would react. My parents are still around, still present in my life, and have always treated me with love.

I'm very deeply glad for you that you have such wonderful loving parents!

I personally do feel I believe that old saying "better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all", which if you consider that might understand my perspective, why I feel how I do, if I'm making sense? Sometimes too I think personal experiences can matter, like I've had issues with my parents: my father emotionally rejected me because of my sex, and my mother is a narcissist, so like my situation isn't nearly as bad as Rey's but I do feel I can relate to her at least a little.

Oh dear but I do feel you and I can both totally agree that whomever said Rey hasn't had any hardships or tragedies is totally off base?

I keep seeing people say that Mary Sue is a term only thrown at female characters. I want to say that when I was a wee nerdling and first heard this term the go to example everyone used to explain it was Wes Crusher from early tng. Since then we've had lots of people complaining that Wolverine is a mary sue in the comics(I think they dialled him back before he died) also Bond is another one that I hear a bit depending on which movie/ actor/ era you're talking about.
Also people are saying that she can't be a mary sue because she isn't a direct representation of JJ in TFA. Okay so she doesn't check every box on the list but if enough of them are crossed off it seems more prudent to just label her as such for sake of pedanticism.

I do feel just because other people have misused a term doesn't mean it's valid? A Mary Sue is where you insert an idealized version of yourself into your story, and I've heard people talk about that with Gene and Wesley, and that really could be the case if he tried to make Wesley a perfect version of himself and imagined Wesley was him, then yes that'd fit what that is, right? I don't know anything about comic books so I really can't comment on Wolverine, but if those writers are making Wolverine like themselves but perfect then yes that could be an example. But really Rey doesn't fit at all, and it's totally an incorrect term, and it really seems here most people are using "Mary Sue" to mean "overachieving female".

 

[Jinn]

Yeah, I mean, if a Mary Sue is only a self-insert for the author, why don't we just call characters "author self-inserts". I mean, granted, it's one word longer, but it is also a lot less... controversial and usually gets the point actoss without the danger of getting into misogynistic territory.

 

[Campe]

I'm very deeply glad for you that you have such wonderful loving parents!

I personally do feel I believe that old saying "better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all", which if you consider that might understand my perspective, why I feel how I do, if I'm making sense? Sometimes too I think personal experiences can matter, like I've had issues with my parents: my father emotionally rejected me because of my sex, and my mother is a narcissist, so like my situation isn't nearly as bad as Rey's but I do feel I can relate to her at least a little.

As I said, it all comes down to your world view and your experiences. I'm sorry you've had to deal with all of that. It is a tough situation to be sure and now I understand why you feel the way you do regarding Rey's experiences to be more troublesome than Luke's. You can relate to them. Makes sense to me.

Oh dear but I do feel you and I can both totally agree that whomever said Rey hasn't had any hardships or tragedies is totally off base?

I've basically said as much, yes.

 

[Marynator]

Yeah, I mean, if a Mary Sue is only a self-insert for the author, why don't we just call characters "author self-inserts". I mean, granted, it's one word longer, but it is also a lot less... controversial and usually gets the point actoss without the danger of getting into misogynistic territory.

Oh yes when talking about author fantasy self-inserts (I feel we need that extra word because really it's your idealized or perfect self you're inserting) it's always so much better not to use a sexist term, from what I understand most "Mary Sue's" started out by female fan fiction writers who wrote themselves in as love interests for heroes. But I think in cases like here, they are using misogynistic meanings, because the main objection (whether they're admitting it or not) is that a female character has exceeded the feats of her male predecessors, and oh my goodness what madness is this?? Must be crazy writer wish fulfillment because such achievement is so totally unrealistic for a woman, right?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Lucas: Luke..... Nah, nothing Gary Stu-y about that. Nope.

 

[Trekkin]

Honestly, a better example of a comic ‘Mary Sue’ is Batman in the hands of the wrong writer.

Because a Mary Sue isn’t necessarily ‘flawless.’ Their intended flaws just don’t have to actually be of consequence. Because that’s generally how people wish their flaws worked. For eg. ‘Clutzy’ is a typical flaw for female characters, but is usually only used so a character can literally swoon into a love interests arms.

With Batman, that means bad writers sometimes turn his ego and terrible emotional/control issues, into ‘he’s slightly broody, but only to a charmingly sexy degree. His manipulations and motivations will turn out to be 100% justified, his ego should be stoked or held up as part of his awesomeness, any bad things that result from his actions aren’t his fault, and BTW he can kill nearly the entire JLA by himself now.

Oh, and they have also conveniently become a bunch of douches:’

Yeah, I mean, if a Mary Sue is only a self-insert for the author, why don't we just call characters "author self-inserts". I mean, granted, it's one word longer, but it is also a lot less... controversial and usually gets the point actoss without the danger of getting into misogynistic territory.

It’s also why the term doesn’t really work outside fanfic. It was just short hand for a certain archetype of self insert, that tended to result in near-identical stock stories regardless of the fandom/setting etc that a particular story was set in.

I guess the first film did suggest all that was necessary to be strong in the Force was to believe in and actually trust in it but it was pretty vague how and why that worked, why a surrounding energy/life field would give particular powers and abilities at all or do so because it was believed in. Or even why so few people did believe in it despite the Jedi with those abilities once having been around (the Jedi were probably originally intended to be few in number and, regardless, their defeat was widely seen as invalidating them).
Although actually even in the first film it's suggested the Rebels generally do believe in the Force (the general says May the Force be with you to all the pilots) but aren't trying to develop skill in it-so maybe anyone can become a Jedi but only if they get specific instructions and training from a Jedi.

It’s almost like they were based a little bit on knights, or something.