Who's The Best Person?

[Mojochi]

Worf is intolerant at times, close-minded, quick to violence, bigoted against Romulans, enough to value one dying more than his ship & crew's safety (The Enemy)

He was eager to carry a torch in Admiral Satie's witch hunt. He's been spoken to about disrespecting his commanding officer, when that officer was Data (Gambit)

In fact, no one's contribution on the entire crew has been corrected or disregarded more. I can barely get through an episode without someone shooting him down, scoffing, or plain telling him he's wrong

& yes, horrible father, even by Klingon standards

Edit: Actually, Troi's not bad. A little snooty, & certainly nosy, the worst I can recall being how she guilted O'Brien in The Wounded, & she was totally in the wrong with Jellico, & sometimes her judgment is questionable, but all tolled, she's a pretty decent person

 

[Nakita Akita]

But, busy-body-ness was not on the original list of Mojochi. The question was about " Nobility, integrity, righteousness, generosity, kindness, loyalty, humility, reliability". It seems unfair to fault Troi for this one incident especially when Jellico was such an ass. When you work for an jerk, you and your coworkers need to find coping mechanisms.

Joking mostly, but I wanted to say that I think she embodied all the things on the list to a marked degree. She's not my first choice, but she is not far off the mark.

When she said the Riker on the bridge I had to view it as it wasn't the first time she told one person what another person was thinking that was NOT for the good of the mission or either party involved.

Neither Riker nor the others on the bridge needed to know that Jellico had misgivings or fears about his decisions.
She said it out of spite. And if she did it once she most likely did it other times.

I was in the Army. I didn't find Jellico to be a jerk at all.
In that episode the jerk was Riker.

 

[Sophie74656]

I think Beverly Crusher. She always tries to do the right things even if its against protocols.

 

[Leviathan]

Keep in mind that Data did join the Borg, commandeered the ship, and was in process of shooting Kivas Fajo in cold blood.

He's one emotion chip blip away from full on Dalek.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I was in the Army. I didn't find Jellico to be a jerk at all.
.

All I remember is I wanted to punch that guy. But, it's been so long time since I have seen it, I should probably go back and see it to be sure.

But, was Troi lying or telling the truth? If she was truthful, then he was unsure of himself and hence an ass because a commander should not be unsure. If Troi was lying, then you are right about her.

 

[Nakita Akita]

All I remember is I wanted to punch that guy. But, it's been so long time since I have seen it, I should probably go back and see it to be sure.

But, was Troi lying or telling the truth? If she was truthful, then he was unsure of himself and hence an ass because a commander should not be unsure. If Troi was lying, then you are right about her.

We would have to assume that she belived what she said.
And no, commanders make the best decision that they can with the available resources and information.
Are they 100% sure they are right?
Not always. There are variables often in situations that can't be accounted for.
There could have been variables of which his command structure did not inform him.
Certainly the biggest variable would have been actions and reactions of the enemy.

I think if he had been 100% sure of his actions, and Troi had said THAT, I would have thought he was an ass, for the reasons above.
I don't have combat experience but I do have military training and military leadership training.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Worf is the best person. He is always striving to be and do the honorable thing.
He believes in honor above everything and what could possibly be better than being honorable?

Didn't Worf murder a guy while on duty?

 

[Nakita Akita]

Didn't Worf murder a guy while on duty?

But it was honorable.........

 

[XCV330]

Did Worf ever get help for his prune juice addiction?

 

[Mojochi]

But, was Troi lying or telling the truth?

Worse, I think she said what she thought was true, but she was wrong

Are they 100% sure they are right?
Not always. There are variables often in situations that can't be accounted for.
There could have been variables of which his command structure did not inform him.
Certainly the biggest variable would have been actions and reactions of the enemy.

I think if he had been 100% sure of his actions, and Troi had said THAT, I would have thought he was an ass, for the reasons above.

Of course he wasn't 100% sure of his actions. He literally told Picard that very thing, that their missions won't succeed, that Picard will likely be captured or die, & that the Enterprise will be the frontline ship in the outbreak of war. His actions are all he figures are even remotely capable of thwarting that outcome. Of course he's not sure they'll succeed

But that's not what she said. She said he's not sure of himself. Well... Riker had said he was, & she contradicted it... on duty... on the bridge... during mission operations, which is the same thing, & a pretty awful leap to take, because that's a very minute distinction in the emotional construct of a person, being unsure of yourself, vs being unsure about what you're doing. While he is, admittedly, uncertain that his actions will succeed, I've no doubt he IS 100% sure that they are the only actions to undertake, if they ever are to succeed.

That would mean he IS sure of himself. He's just not sure this mission has any chance, & frankly, I don't think Troi has nearly as fine an ability to make that distinction. Trekkies, by & large, make fun of her for how vague & inconsistent her abilities are. She probably just felt, "He's not sure this is going to work"

Surely not... but he is sure that what he's doing is about the only thing that might, & that's what his job there is, to determine an avenue of action with the best probability of success, & since he did succeed, I'd say it was spot on

As for Troi's snooty self... She makes a hobby out of undermining people. What kind of person goes to a friend's jazz concert, & deliberately makes a scene out of requesting a song that she knows her friend has trouble performing, & will likely mess up, ruin the concert & embarrass himself? (Second Chances)

That's just mean spirited imho. The idea that she should be going around, handing out rations of humble pie to people is about as snobby as it gets, & with that... I'll stop bashing her now lol

 

[Steven P Bastien]

We would have to assume that she belived what she said.
And no, commanders make the best decision that they can with the available resources and information.
Are they 100% sure they are right?
Not always. There are variables often in situations that can't be accounted for.
There could have been variables of which his command structure did not inform him.
Certainly the biggest variable would have been actions and reactions of the enemy.

I think if he had been 100% sure of his actions, and Troi had said THAT, I would have thought he was an ass, for the reasons above.
I don't have combat experience but I do have military training and military leadership training.

So, I watched the episode just now, up to the point whereTroi says "no he's not". I just don't find any problem with her making that statement. It's just a passing comment between two friends. Riker says "he's sure of himself", and Troi says "he's not" because she knows he is not. If she went around talking to others members of the crew, and saying that, that would be very bad indeed. But, Riker is second in command and they are very close friends. You have to let that one go and not let that be a basis for questioning her moral character. I'd be willing to bet you have done much worse than this, and I know I have.

 

[Mojochi]

It's just a passing comment between two friends.

No it's not. It's advising from the ship's empathic counselor to the ship's 2nd in command, on duty, on the bridge, during a live mission. It is actively undermining the captain imho. A lot of bad behavior from the whole crew during that episode. I don't hold their feet to the fire about it too much, because they are generally decent people otherwise, but it is what it is

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I just can't agree. If she talked to other people, it would be "undermining". All she did was correct Riker's incorrect statement. He made a guess that "he's sure" but her skill let her know he is not sure. What's wrong with correcting the second officers's incorrect statement?

 

[Nakita Akita]

I just can't agree. If she talked to other people, it would be "undermining". All she did was correct Riker's incorrect statement. He made a guess that "he's sure" but her skill let her know he is not sure. What's wrong with correcting the second officers's incorrect statement?

If they had been alone, but, it's been a while since I watched it, it seems like they were on the bridge or someplace where there were other people nearby.
In private would be different.

 

[Nakita Akita]

So, I watched the episode just now, up to the point whereTroi says "no he's not". I just don't find any problem with her making that statement. It's just a passing comment between two friends. Riker says "he's sure of himself", and Troi says "he's not" because she knows he is not. If she went around talking to others members of the crew, and saying that, that would be very bad indeed. But, Riker is second in command and they are very close friends. You have to let that one go and not let that be a basis for questioning her moral character. I'd be willing to bet you have done much worse than this, and I know I have.

Big I'm not s mind reader, if I said it, it would be Speculative, from here, everyone would think it is a fact.
And in a public area, others could hear which undermines the mission as well as the captain's credibility.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

If others overheard, then I agree with you. I didn't get the impression that others were able to listen in to their conversation. I just watched in a little while ago, and that was my impression, but I could be wrong. I could watch it again, but there is no point. If Troi lets other hear that, she is doing something very bad. If she just corrects Riker in a private conversation, then at worst it's a minor transgression between friends, and at best it is her doing her duty to correct a mistake in her superior officer's statement.

 

[Nakita Akita]

If others overheard, then I agree with you. I didn't get the impression that others were able to listen in to their conversation. I just watched in a little while ago, and that was my impression, but I could be wrong. I could watch it again, but there is no point. If Troi lets other hear that, she is doing something very bad. If she just corrects Riker in a private conversation, then at worst it's a minor transgression between friends, and at best it is her doing her duty to correct a mistake in her superior officer's statement.

It's one of my favorite episodes.
Maybe I'll put it on tonight while I candy rose petals.
Something sounds bad there.
I'm really going to make candied rose petals

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Since my moral character is not the question in this thread, I'll point out that my opinions will quickly change when bribed with candied rose petals.

 

[Mojochi]

I just can't agree. If she talked to other people, it would be "undermining". All she did was correct Riker's incorrect statement. He made a guess that "he's sure" but her skill let her know he is not sure. What's wrong with correcting the second officers's incorrect statement?

Because even if no one overheard, it's still a professional rather than personal conversation. Her role on that bridge is as special counsel. How is what she did there any different than when she tells Picard that someone, with whom he's negotiating, is being untruthful, or hiding something? It isn't. In fact, it's rather alarming that she'd do it within the crew dynamic, to subvert fellow officers with one another, even if she didn't mean to.

Her tone is one of warning. She is warning the 2nd officer that the captain is not as composed as he wants everyone to think, & in this case, having everyone think the captain IS composed may very well be integral to the mission. He's playing a pretty risky game of brinkmanship. The last thing he needs is somebody spreading word that he's bluffing, especially to his direct subordinate, with whom he's already having difficulties

But more than that, her comment has the potential to shape attitudes, when people (Like Riker) place stock in it, as they do, because she is known to have supernatural insights. She could have inadvertently corrupted Riker's impression of Jellico right then, & very well could've been a contributing factor in him continuing the deterioration of their professional relationship with one another

You should seriously not do that to your superior officers, least of all in these dire circumstances. Riker ends up relieved of duty, because he pushed his lack of respect for this captain too far. Maybe he wouldn't have done that, if he hadn't been told the guy was full of shit, by the ship's professional counselor

I agree it was probably a thoughtless offhand comment from her, but it was way out of line. She should know better, as a professional therapist, analyst & counselor. I mind the things I say at work all the time, even when the conversation is relaxed. There's no way she doesn't have those same kinds of requirements, & let's not forget, I'm off the opinion that she's flat out wrong about Jellico there, as I explained above, which makes this slip even more dangerous, imho

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I'm off the opinion that she's flat out wrong about Jellico there, as I explained above, which makes this slip even more dangerous, imho

So, you make some very good points. I still feel it is not as big a deal as you make it sound, but your points are valid, so I wont try to debate them. We basically agree more than we disagree, and it's more a rating of the degree of the transgression that we disagree about.

But, on this last comment you made, I'd like to make a response. How can we say that she is wrong? I thought that her Betazoid skills allowed her to know things that we can not know. Sometimes she has feelings and is not sure, but she says she is not sure. Other times she is sure and she sounds sure. This is a case where she sounds very sure. This is why I asked before if she is lying or telling the truth. If she is not sure and makes it sound like she is sure, shame on her. But, if she is honestly sure, how can we say we are right and she is wrong?