News Martin-Green: Star Trek Is About Universality

[Spot261]

he didn’t put an actress he was dating in that suit, he started dating her after she started working on the show, and the suit was the result of a bunch of people

Dating maybe not, but rumours persist to this day that was far from the start of things, in either case, he both gave the parameters for what she wore and cleared it. They only created what he wanted them to create and she was only allowed leeway on wearing it after they started having to give her oxygen therapy due to it being so constricting.

 

[Refuge]

Was there a backlash to Janeway on the scale we are seeing to DSC? I've not dismissed VOY for it's casting, on the contrary it was very positive, but all I've mentioned was it's storytelling and allegory which is infamously weak.

Seven as sexy and relevant though?

Seriously? A male producer noted for his sexist attitudes putting an actress he was sleeping with in a skimpy outfit she objected to wearing and caused her serious medical problems in order to boost viewing figures. You see that as progress?

To be honest I don't think most people have Discovery on their radar.

Are you suggesting Ryan got the role because she screwed the guy who hired her? I thought their relationship developed after she was hired, but even if it didn't do you think it is progress to reduce her to that?

 

[jaime]

Dating maybe not, but rumours persist to this day that was far from the start of things, in either case, he both gave the parameters for what she wore and cleared it. They only created what he wanted them to create and she was only allowed leeway on wearing it after they started having to give her oxygen therapy due to it being so constricting.

I am not gonna go on rumours. Like I said...he’s an oddball, not in a way I think is great based on some things in interviews, and probably wasn’t the best fit for Trek. The real source of difficulty for Jeri was the behaviour of Kate, by all accounts.
Yeah, the oxygen situation is ridiculous, but there’s a history of Trek being...too demanding of its actors at times. They only ditched the TNg spandex after the shows Star basically got a letter from his doctor, and the TOS cast were being sewn into their uniforms on TMP. Not to mention the unpleasantness alleged in interviews for poor Persis. Basically, Sevens costume was ridiculous, but Treks got bad form there across the board...look at the suffering of some it’s masked actors. Those make-ups evolved over time to be less difficult for them, but the early stuff was always uncomfortable. Heck...I think even the original pilots had issues around Orion slave make-up and those silver contact lenses.
I wouldn’t conflate the two things...it’s an odd thing underlying Trek and SF in general that has undercurrents in sexualisation of characters (male and female) and questionable costuming as a result. Combining the romantic choices made by people, rumour, and that, can be unfair to those concerned, including in this case, Jeri Ryan, as the intimation of the rumour you mention is that she got her job by sleeping with the boss, and agreeing to wear that outfit in the first place....but I don’t think that’s fair or true, do you?

 

[Refuge]

he didn’t put an actress he was dating in that suit, he started dating her after she started working on the show, and the suit was the result of a bunch of people...it also changed fairly quickly.

I constantly am disappointed how Ryan is degraded in such discussions. She was and is a competent actress and as a woman I'm not offended by her presence on the show.

 

[Spot261]

To be honest I don't think most people have Discovery on their radar.

Are you suggesting Ryan got the role because she screwed the guy who hired her? I thought their relationship developed after she was hired, but even if it didn't do you think it is progress to reduce her to that?

I said no such thing, please don't twist my words.

I'm saying he used and abused his position of power over her, much as he did or tried to do with several other actresses, having a relationship with a clear power imbalance and forcing her into a position of being objectified despite her objections whilst putting her health at risk to boost the viewing figures and you have held that up as an example of female empowerment

 

[Spot261]

I am not gonna go on rumours. Like I said...he’s an oddball, not in a way I think is great based on some things in interviews, and probably wasn’t the best fit for Trek. The real source of difficulty for Jeri was the behaviour of Kate, by all accounts.

Fair enough, but the timing really makes no difference to the fact he had a relationship with her whilst in a position of power over her, a position he was already showing a pattern of abusing with the way she was treated on set. Hardly an impressive track record or an endorsement for the show's credentials.

 

[jaime]

I constantly am disappointed how Ryan is degraded in such discussions. She was and is a competent actress and as a woman I'm not offended by her presence on the show.

That’s the thing, I got fed up with the ‘borg Babe’ stuff in the press, and wandered off from Voyager before I had even seen her arrive. It was more that just that, but it did t exactly draw me back. I also wandered off from Ds9, maybe because I found war stories boring, but there’s always a confluence of events (usually called getting a job, and discovering girls and beer. It’s no accident my wandering off from fandoms in general coincides with my late teens early twenties. Fandom was not conducive to successful dating prospects in those days...and I wasn’t in when Trek was on, cos I was at work.) around it.
I come back to the show, and regret drifting off. Seven is no more a pair of boobs on a ship than Riker was pecs on a ship. She did dominate storylines a tad...but Voyager got better as it went, it’s my mistake for thinking it got worse.

 

[Refuge]

I wouldn’t conflate the two things...it’s an odd thing underlying Trek and SF in general that has undercurrents in sexualisation of characters (male and female) and questionable costuming as a result. Combining the romantic choices made by people, rumour, and that, can be unfair to those concerned, including in this case, Jeri Ryan, as the intimation of the rumour you mention is that she got her job by sleeping with the boss, and agreeing to wear that outfit in the first place....but I don’t think that’s fair or true, do you?

It doesn't serve Discovery or its place as representing diversity and feminism well by going down this path either. I wasn't around in these forums when Voyager or Enterprise were new, but from all accounts it was not a picnic for those shows either.

When the character of Seven was introduced I felt confronted by her costume. However it hardly registers now. She is Seven and I say - go girl

 

[Spot261]

When the character of Seven was introduced I felt confronted by her costume. However it hardly registers now. She is Seven and I say - go girl

Saying "go girl" would be just the opposite though, she didn't like the suit, it was forced on her and compromised her health to the point it became life threatening and only after that point did anyone take her objections into account.

How on earth can you see being in favour of the suit as being supportive of her as a woman or a human being?

 

[Refuge]

That’s the thing, I got fed up with the ‘borg Babe’ stuff in the press, and wandered off from Voyager before I had even seen her arrive. It was more that just that, but it did t exactly draw me back. I also wandered off from Ds9, maybe because I found war stories boring, but there’s always a confluence of events (usually called getting a job, and discovering girls and beer. It’s no accident my wandering off from fandoms in general coincides with my late teens early twenties. Fandom was not conducive to successful dating prospects in those days...and I wasn’t in when Trek was on, cos I was at work.) around it.
I come back to the show, and regret drifting off. Seven is no more a pair of boobs on a ship than Riker was pecs on a ship. She did dominate storylines a tad...but Voyager got better as it went, it’s my mistake for thinking it got worse.

I do agree about timing. I think sometimes you appreciate a show more at different times of your life and even the way you get to view them. Say binge watching versus weekly.

 

[Refuge]

Saying "go girl" would be just the opposite though, she didn't like the suit, it was forced on her and compromised her health to the point it became life threatening and only after that point did anyone take her objections into account.

How on earth can you see being in favour of the suit as being supportive of her as a woman or a human being?

She stayed on the show for four seasons and presented a good character - that is how I can say "go girl". At least I'm not reducing her to just being a Borg 'babe'.

 

[jaime]

Fair enough, but the timing really makes no difference to the fact he had a relationship with her whilst in a position of power over her, a position he was already showing a pattern of abusing with the way she was treated on set. Hardly an impressive track record or an endorsement for the show's credentials.

Until I hear different from people on that show, I see no casting couch scenario that you are intimating, and if anything, the evidence suggests his ‘power’ protected her from some stuff whilst leading to bullying (that was already happening because of actor ego) with exactly the sort of content you imply here. She wasn’t going to lose her job if she broke up with Braga, based on events at the time. I’d give Ryan more credit...and though it pains me to say it, at that time I would give the producers more credit too, even Braga.

 

[jaime]

She stayed on the show for four seasons and presented a good character - that is how I can say "go girl". At least I'm not reducing her to just being a Borg 'babe'.

Yeah...I find it amazing Seven Slut Shaming is still a thing twenty years on. And I guess some rumours are like the Borg...relentless, the ultimate consumer...

 

[Spot261]

She stayed on the show for four seasons and presented a good character - that is how I can say "go girl". At least I'm not reducing her to just being a Borg 'babe'.

Nor am I. But you aren't remotely addressing the fact you are presenting an example of a man abusing his power over a woman as an example of female empowerment. She didn't want the suit. It harmed her. How is that empowerment?

Until I hear different from people on that show, I see no casting couch scenario that you are intimating,

Still didn't say it, still didn't imply it, not sure why you keep going down that road?

Either provide some quote where I made any such insinuation or stop suggesting I did.

 

[jaime]

Nor am I. But you aren't remotely addressing the fact you are presenting an example of a man abusing his power over a woman as an example of female empowerment. She didn't want the suit. It harmed her. How is that empowerment?



Still didn't say it, still didn't imply it, not sure why you keep going down that road?

She’s not. She’s saying a good actress portrayed a good character for four years. The costume was a bunch of people, male execs, sure, hormones definitely, marketing people, costume designers. Braga didn’t sling the dress at Jeri and tell her to her obey her master and slip it on before flouncing off to read De Sade. Ok...he probably did flounce off to read De Sade.

You absolutely imply it...You linked the fact they were dating to the fact she was put in the costume. The costume in question was part of the role. You even said that the rumours were that they were dating before she got the role..everything about the power dynamic you are describing reeks of Hollywood casting couch implications. It’s implicit. Maybe you don’t mean it, so you agree that it didn’t happen? There is no impropriety outside of rumour? Based on what we know? Great.

 

[Refuge]

Nor am I. But you aren't remotely addressing the fact you are presenting an example of a man abusing his power over a woman as an example of female empowerment. She didn't want the suit. It harmed her. How is that empowerment?

The original suit didn't last long - thankfully. However I'm not convinced he abused his power over her. I think she got the job because she was what they were looking for and once she got it, she did a good job. That to me is empowerment because she rose above the sexualisation.

 

[Spot261]

You absolutely imply it...You linked the fact they were dating to the fact she was put in the costume.

Still no quote? Still nothing? Where have I suggested she slept with him for the job?

I really want you to provide a quote.

 

[Spot261]

The original suit didn't last long - thankfully. However I'm not convinced he abused his power over her. I think she got the job because she was what they were looking for and once she got it, she did a good job. That to me is empowerment because she rose above the sexualisation.

I'm glad she did, because the original suit was frankly a disgraceful abuse. She had no control over the situation and when someone is requiring oxygen therapy between takes to counteract the effects of an outfit then it's really hard to justify, especially if they aren't really giving full consent, which she wasn't.

The fact that she has on numerous occasions made exactly the same observations herself really can't be dismissed. No one is slut shaming to point out he had an enormous amount of control over the situation and was well in the habit of abusing that power, a pattern which clearly continued in her case. She was a victim who was strong enough to take some control back and make something of the situation with her performance. The shame is she had to fight to make that happen.

 

[jaime]

Still no quote? Still nothing? Where have I suggested she slept with him for the job?

I really want you to provide a quote.

Dating maybe not, but rumours persist to this day that was far from the start of things, in either case, he both gave the parameters for what she wore and cleared it. They only created what he wanted them to create and she was only allowed leeway on wearing it after they started having to give her oxygen therapy due to it being so constricting.

I said no such thing, please don't twist my words.

I'm saying he used and abused his position of power over her, much as he did or tried to do with several other actresses, having a relationship with a clear power imbalance and forcing her into a position of being objectified despite her objections whilst putting her health at risk to boost the viewing figures and you have held that up as an example of female empowerment

These, combined with the fact she was in the outfit from her first appearance as regular cast (to all intents, I know she didn’t get the outfit till her second episode, but there were photo calls etc.) strongly implies a ‘casting couch’ scenario.
The allegations against Braga (who I can’t stand, for much the same set of rumours combined with interviews that suggest there’s something not right in the state of Denmark. But that supposition forming my opinion, and yours, we simply don’t have facts) basically outright say ‘he uses casting couch’ which combined with your mentioning the ‘rumour’ imply and paint a picture.
Do I think Braga would behave that way? Quite possibly.
Is there evidence? No.
Is there evidence it didn’t happen? Yes. Interviews with Ryan for a start, and the fact they dated later on, and that there has been no stories of such that I have heard...whilst hearing about plenty of other stuff.
Do I think Ryan would behave that way? No.
Is there evidence? Yes. She was already a rising star in Hollywood tv and even SF fandom. After her divorce she was likely to be trying to avoid any scandal, and this would not fit with that.
Is there evidence it did happen after all? No. Aside from rumour and the documented on-set bullying at the time suggesting why this rumour would get fuelled, it seems that some people simply add two and two and get seven.
It’s just a big accusation against Jeri as much as Braga.

 

[Spot261]

These, combined with the fact she was in the outfit from her first appearance as regular cast (to all intents, I know she didn’t get the outfit till her second episode, but there were photo calls etc.) strongly implies a ‘casting couch’ scenario.
The allegations against Braga (who I can’t stand, for much the same set of rumours combined with interviews that suggest there’s something not right in the state of Denmark. But that supposition forming my opinion, and yours, we simply don’t have facts) basically outright say ‘he uses casting couch’ which combined with your mentioning the ‘rumour’ imply and paint a picture.
Do I think Braga would behave that way? Quite possibly.
Is there evidence? No.
Is there evidence it didn’t happen? Yes. Interviews with Ryan for a start, and the fact they dated later on, and that there has been no stories of such that I have heard...whilst hearing about plenty of other stuff.
Do I think Ryan would behave that way? No.
Is there evidence? Yes. She was already a rising star in Hollywood tv and even SF fandom. After her divorce she was likely to be trying to avoid any scandal, and this would not fit with that.
Is there evidence it did happen after all? No. Aside from rumour and the documented on-set bullying at the time suggesting why this rumour would get fuelled, it seems that some people simply add two and two and get seven.
It’s just a big accusation against Jeri as much as Braga.

So, you still have no quote where I suggested or implied she slept with him for the job? Nothing except a scenario you have constructed in your head?

All I suggested was (in my words and from the quote you used)

Dating maybe not, but rumours persist to this day that was far from the start of things, in

clearly and openly talking about the suggestion he abused his power over her with nothing at all to suggest that she slept with him for the job.

Again, I really want you to find a quote or drop the accusation.