Who should become the next Doctor after Whittaker?

[starsuperion]

Oh please do. Given that we are waving unverified real world credentials around it is worth mentioning in a previous career I was a published evolutionary psychologist and part of Robin Dunbars research team at Liverpool. Please do explain to me in great and patronising length anyway though.



Given I haven't been so crass as to wave my own IQ around on the internet, do lose the wounded victim act. It is you that has been patronising by bringing the whole concept into play. Entirely aside from being entirely aware of the considerable limitations of IQ testing as an empirical tool, it seemingly hasn't occurred to you that my own might well be at the upper end of the distribution. As it happens it is, I just don't really read anything into it.

I can see later this is going to be a verbal jujistu exercise, the condiscension is very thick. You're work will be scrutinized before I respond, I assure you. As to my touting unverified data, I can produce my IQ exam scores from when I was 7 years old, but as you so elliquently imply, it won't matter to you regardless since I'm not a reflection of your ideology And don't assign validity to the testing itself. It will be I'm sure. Dismissed to support your position.

 

[Kirk Prime]

They have established that the a doctor can have some sort of say, even on a psychological level, as to what the next incarnation would be.

So I would do something unprecedented. Well, almost unprecedented since it sort of was implied in the 50th anniversary special that Tom Baker was a future version of The Doctor.

I would have the Doctor regenerate into Paul McGann. He never got a real turn as the Doctor, and he wouldn't BE the 8th Doctor--he'd be the 14th. He just happens to look like the 8th, and they can even explain it saying that he felt the 8th Doctor was a version that was shortchanged.

He wouldn't be bound by 8th Doctor personality, and he would have the ability shape the character and finally have a run.

 

[Spot261]

I can see later this is going to be a verbal jujistu exercise, the condiscension is very thick. You're work will be scrutinized before I respond, I assure you. As to my touting unverified data, I can produce my exam, but as you so elliquently imply, it won't matter to you regardless since I'm not a reflection of your ideology. It will be I'm sure. Dismissed to support your position.

It's not that you aren't a reflection of my ideology, but rather that you are seemingly unaware of just how obvious your sexism is, no matter how hard you attempt to pretend it is a case of specific objections in this instance.

I have no desire to do this ad infinitum, especially as even the most cursory glance around your posting history will flag up the mysterious pattern of perfectly intelligent people drawing exactly the same conclusions about you.

And, just to be clear, yes this is an aspersion on your character as consistently presented.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I am not saying I don't want a woman Doctor, I'm saying that the way it's been done is disingenuous, and that I'd have preferred a different actress have gotten the role. My reasoning may make you feel like it's the misogyny or sexism, but it's not. Reading into my posts isn't on me, it's how you're taking my texts, and is not what I've been saying all along.

Disingenuous? How is simply making the choice to cast a woman disingenuous? Because it's not "fair" to men? Because it didn't happen "organically"?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

They have established that the a doctor can have some sort of say, even on a psychological level, as to what the next incarnation would be.

So I would do something unprecedented. Well, almost unprecedented since it sort of was implied in the 50th anniversary special that Tom Baker was a future version of The Doctor.

I would have the Doctor regenerate into Paul McGann. He never got a real turn as the Doctor, and he wouldn't BE the 8th Doctor--he'd be the 14th. He just happens to look like the 8th, and they can even explain it saying that he felt the 8th Doctor was a version that was shortchanged.

He wouldn't be bound by 8th Doctor personality, and he would have the ability shape the character and finally have a run.

From The Movie to the Regeneration was what, 15 years. I'd just make an 8th Doctor TV series. Hell, there was a period when there were two version of Star Trek running simultanously on TV, three CSI franchises... Why not two Doctor Who shows?

 

[Professor Zoom]

I can see later this is going to be a verbal jujistu exercise, the condiscension is very thick. You're work will be scrutinized before I respond, I assure you. As to my touting unverified data, I can produce my IQ exam scores from when I was 7 years old, but as you so elliquently imply, it won't matter to you regardless since I'm not a reflection of your ideology And don't assign validity to the testing itself. It will be I'm sure. Dismissed to support your position.

Has it come to that? Waving around our IQ tests? Does that give you more authority on a fictional tv show?

And you misspelled condescension.

 

[Marynator]

I'd have preferred a different actress have gotten the role.

Which actress would you have loved to see cast as the Doctor? How would you feel if she is the next Doctor after this one? Would you prefer a less than ideal woman Doctor, or a male actor you don't really respect?

 

[Spot261]

Has it come to that? Waving around our IQ tests? Does that give you more authority on a fictional tv show?

And you misspelled condescension.

In was going to let that slide, but yes, it's a pretty hilarious irony.

 

[Marynator]

Oh boys, I don't feel it really matters if someone misspells a word, or whatever you say your intelligence or credentials are, doesn't it just matter what you're saying or trying to say in your message or your actions?

 

[Professor Zoom]

Oh boys, I don't feel it really matters if someone misspells a word, or whatever you say your intelligence or credentials are, doesn't it just matter what you're saying or trying to say in your message or your actions?

Oh, I agree. The irony was to much to pass up though.
And believe me, I've been going around and around with certain posters in regard to what I feel are their sexist positions regarding the casting. However, you are doing a much better job than I.

 

[UncleRogi]

I can see later this is going to be a verbal jujistu exercise, the condiscension is very thick. You're work will be scrutinized before I respond, I assure you. As to my touting unverified data, I can produce my IQ exam scores from when I was 7 years old, but as you so elliquently imply, it won't matter to you regardless since I'm not a reflection of your ideology And don't assign validity to the testing itself. It will be I'm sure. Dismissed to support your position.

I'll bet my IQ scores from the 70s would bugger yours, but like Spot261 so rightly pointed out, that's meaningless.
All those tests truly measure is reading comprehension. Get off your High Horse, man...

 

[jaime]

But you see, despite all you're saying, I'm still so very hurt to see people who are so upset a woman is the new Doctor. I feel this tells me it's not so rosy as you're saying? You don't have to hear people actually saying those things, I mean it's what actions say, how we're shown and instructed from youth.

You say you have no hidden misogyny, but that's not what I'm hearing when you say you don't want a woman Doctor. I feel you're saying to me "A Companion is good enough for you". Why? If a Companion is so wonderful, then why not a male Companion and a female Doctor? If what you say is true, shouldn't it not matter to you? I mean, you can say as much as you want, but at the end all I'm really hearing is "I only want male Doctors because he's a male institution". I don't feel we'll have equality until every single last male institution is torn down and rebuilt.

When you say "A woman shouldn't be this, men only" you're being sexist, however you rationalize it.

Tearing down every last Male institution and preplacing them with female ones isn’t equality. Building female ones up where there are none, to stand next to the male ones, working together, is equality, tearing down the institutions that prevent that from happening, rebuilding the ones that are needed together, that is equality. People, working together, to make sure people are treated fairly and live well together, is a great thing we can build together, if we stop fighting over lines in the sand long enough to do it.
What you are hearing, is not what I am saying. Otherwise, I would not be saying what I am in this thread, I would be calling for her replacement to be a male. I am not doing that, nor am I calling for any replacement, because it’s her turn now.
Something was lost, and I am asking for people to recognise that, because that way, maybe what it’s replaced with will be worth it. Maybe all this energy we expend fighting can be used to push for its replacement. Maybe by recognising something has worth, we can stop denigrating people we deem to be ‘other’. Then it really won’t matter what the Doctors got in their trousers, and we can all go back to wondering if it’s something sonic.
And I can assure you, boys get plenty of gendered expectations put on them too...again, see Rory feeling he has to prove his worth as a Nurse to his father for one example.
Like I said, welcome to the show, I genuinely hope you enjoy it, and explore its history, because there’s a lot to like there.

Edit..you know what, i’m Just going to be silent on the subject now really. I do t like the thought of people feeling alienated, and I’ve said my piece hopefully clearly.

 

[Spot261]

Oh boys, I don't feel it really matters if someone misspells a word, or whatever you say your intelligence or credentials are, doesn't it just matter what you're saying or trying to say in your message or your actions?

Absolutely and that is exactly the point I'm making. It's hard to really express how laughable an IQ score is as a measure of intellectual authority in a board chock full of PhDs. That most of those people (male and female) choose to be more circumspect and allow others to judge them on the quality of their posts whilst keeping their real world identities primarily as a medium for the more social aspects of the boards is telling. Respect is earned by demonstrating a quality far more eloquently than by making claims.

That being said as with any social space reputations develop and I'm afraid to say our friend has developed a fairly consistent one for masking misogyny with a thin veneer of intellectualism.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Tearing down every last Male institution and preplacing them with female ones isn’t equality.

When that happens, call me, because right now, we're talking about one role in one TV show.

What you are hearing, is not what I am saying.

My father used to work in HR and he would often talk about communication. And that if one wasn't consistently understood, then, it might not be the fault of the listener, but, of the speaker.

Something was lost, and I am asking for people to recognise that, because that way, maybe what it’s replaced with will be worth it.

I think the issue is people don't agree that something has been lost. Something has been changed, sure, but, what has been lost?

 

[Marynator]

Oh you see, your nurse example is perfect sexism against women! All sexism is against women, you're just not understanding that. His father is upset because he feels his son has chosen a woman's profession, and he's afraid his son will appear feminine, because being a woman or being like a woman is such a terribly bad thing. Oh but absolutely men suffer from sexism! But you cannot think even for a moment it's anything similar to what women go through. Institutionalized sexism is very real, even in your country, and I find it very sad so many still don't see how it is.

Oh you said somewhere you're afraid there might not be another Doctor. When you say that I feel you're telling me you feel it's such a horrible decision to cast her that the franchise might not even survive! Oh dear!

 

[Spot261]

Oh you see, your nurse example is perfect sexism against women! All sexism is against women, you're just not understanding that. His father is upset because he feels his son has chosen a woman's profession, and he's afraid his son will appear feminine, because being a woman or being like a woman is such a terribly bad thing. Oh but absolutely men suffer from sexism! But you cannot think even for a moment it's anything similar to what women go through. Institutionalized sexism is very real, even in your country, and I find it very sad so many still don't see how it is.

Oh you said somewhere you're afraid there might not be another Doctor. When you say that I feel you're telling me you feel it's such a horrible decision to cast her that the franchise might not even survive! Oh dear!

Thank you.

 

[jaime]

I haven't, we aren't collectively coming as a feminist bloc so to speak. I'd absolutely hold the differentiation between representative and role model to be ubiquitous.

That being said, as @Marynator points out, we really have to view this in the context of the genuine existing imbalance and how important this is to females. We males have such a huge over representation in terms of show leads it seemingly threatens some men to see an outlier, no matter how little difference it makes to the overall statistical trend. This really matters to female viewers and frankly we can afford to lose one male lead.



Do tell that to my four year old son who watches My Little Pony or my ten year old daughter who is Harry Potter obsessed.



What?

Fair enough, then you disregard the role model argument, for or against. Fair enough.

Yes..I’m general I would agree that more female led shows are needed, particularly in some areas (location in the world, or style of show, both) but I am only talking about the one character in the one show, since it’s soemwhat unique.

And as to your children’s viewing habit...that’s why I said ‘tends’ and not ‘always’ and as to my little pony and Harry Potter...well, I think a little being a typical is cool no? I was. And Harry Potter is not exactly a gendered fandom or thing, and it’s absolutely full of characters who take the lead in various ways, while the book is nominally about him as a lead. In the end wel...Spoilers.

 

[jaime]

I'm male as well, and the character in recent SF&F that I have absolutely related to the most has been Rey from the new SW sequels!

Kor

You must have truly great hair.

 

[starsuperion]

It's not that you aren't a reflection of my ideology, but rather that you are seemingly unaware of just how obvious your sexism is, no matter how hard you attempt to pretend it is a case of specific objections in this instance.

I have no desire to do this ad infinitum, especially as even the most cursory glance around your posting history will flag up the mysterious pattern of perfectly intelligent people drawing exactly the same conclusions about you.

And, just to be clear, yes this is an aspersion on your character as consistently presented.

I have reached out to a colleague who is actually attending that College. She has agreed to help me access the online university archives for published papers. I don't need a name. Please keep your privacy, Based on the people you worked with, just a date range, that will allow me to read any published papers.

 

[jaime]

Oh you see, your nurse example is perfect sexism against women! All sexism is against women, you're just not understanding that. His father is upset because he feels his son has chosen a woman's profession, and he's afraid his son will appear feminine, because being a woman or being like a woman is such a terribly bad thing. Oh but absolutely men suffer from sexism! But you cannot think even for a moment it's anything similar to what women go through. Institutionalized sexism is very real, even in your country, and I find it very sad so many still don't see how it is.

Oh you said somewhere you're afraid there might not be another Doctor. When you say that I feel you're telling me you feel it's such a horrible decision to cast her that the franchise might not even survive! Oh dear!

Two things really...one..yes, sometimes the implication is doing a ‘feminine’ job is below you as a man. Sometimes however, probably more often these days, or just as often, is the implication that you won’t be good at it because you aren’t a woman. Or worse, and most terrifyingly sad of all, it may be seen as someone having a shady motive, particularly in the caring professions. Sometimes, fulgpfilling these ‘feminine’ roles, will get you assaulted. Is it because sexism against women? Absolutely. But it’s also about sexism to men, because it says do not deviate from your role (which by and large is to be big and strong and be good at hitting things ideally, or lifting things, particularly if you are from a certain ‘class’. Occasionally, you may even quite like to do something dangerous and get yourself killed for the common good, or severely impact your health and lifespan by dealing with something unpleasant the ‘upper’ classes probably wouldn’t like to touch very much.) I very much believe there’s tons of institutionalised prejudice, but it’s far from from as neatly arranged, and all of it needs, as you would say, tearing down. But maybe not the institutions themselves, because some of them are very important.

You have also not looked at why I think the show is about the go into another cancellation, which I felt would happen soon after I saw Capaldis first season, and then looking at Moffat having to stay on etc. I think it’s totally unrelated to Jodie’s casting. It’s even possible that might prevent it (the idea that this massive change might sharpen things up enough to keep the show going is very much an argument I can see in favour of casting a woman in the role in fact.)
But my concern it might happen is because of looking at history repeating itself, because of the history of the show. It all has echoes of late Colin Baker to Sylvester McCoy era.