Vulcans & Premarital (Pre-Ponn Far?) Sex

[johnnybear]

Nope, I don't like DC's explanation. Seriously: "I mean, every seven years would be a little bad." Yes, having sex only once every seven years would be bad for most HUMANS. But Vulcanians aren't humans. I say let them be alien. Let them have a strange sexuality.

My view that Vulcanian males only have sex during their Pon Farr. They must return to a specific place on the planet Vulcan to complete this ritual. I think we tend to focus only on the seven years cycle and completely forget that the place is just as important as the time. The entire premise of Amok Time is based on this.

The only thing known to disrupt that seven year cycle is stated in "The Cloud Minders" which is "extreme feminine beauty". So there may be rare occasions when the seven year cycle is disrupted, but for the most part it's the rule.

I've always liked the concept that Vulcans only mate once in a seven year cycle! They are aliens and have a much longer life span than humans! Plus I've read the theory earlier on that maybe they become fertile in that seven year cycle which I think was very clever too!

DC Fontana wrote Amok Time she set up the fictional culture so I'll take the creators word for it.

That's funny, I thought it was Theodore Sturgeon who wrote Amok Time! I'm sure it's got his name on it!
JB

 

[Hahawaitwhat]

Vulcans can have sex whenever they want, right? Or is that just the females?

Otherwise, that could be sad for the various interspecies couples we've seen. Can you imagine? Would Trip be able to deal with being turned down every night for seven years?

Or what if B'elanna had given in to Vorik? The next morning, Vorik would calmly say "Thank you, Lieutenant. We are now bonded for life. 'married,' if you will, but don't worry, we will be able to experience intimacy again in 6 years, 347 days."

Now I understand why Mrs. Sarek said "It isn't easy, bit it's a better way."

To add to this, Vorik says: 'I should also remind you that many humanoid species are unable to withstand Klingon mating practices... whereas my superior Vulcan strength would make me a very suitable partner.'

Doesn't that sort of imply he'd be down to get it on at her whim?

 

[Nyotarules]

I prefer to think that Vulcans usually have sex only once in seven years. Yes, it seems unbelievable to us constantly horny humans, and that is good. Vulcans are aliens, they can be weird.

Poor Amanda

 

[Nyotarules]

The "toughness" that Amanda talked of was that Sarek probably made little-to-no emotional connection during the intercourse

In JTB she never explained what the toughness was. This is your head canon. Humans can, have been and do make no emotional connection during sex for millennia, why do you think prostitution is the world's oldest profession? Consider the practise of one night stands and booty calls.
TOS Kirk had sex with women if it helped the mission, he had no emotional connection to them.

 

[Longinus]

Poor Amanda

Perhaps Sarek was a total sex maniac and wanted to have intercourse once a year, and thus preferred marrying human women as obviously no respectable Vulcan would have put up with such nonsense.

 

[Nyotarules]

Perhaps Sarek was a total sex maniac and wanted to have intercourse once a year, and thus preferred marrying human women as obviously no respectable Vulcan would have put up with such nonsense.

LOL
I read a funny TOS fanfic where Spock is about to enter Ponn Farr and laments his loss of control, he asks Uhura to assist him and she agrees, eager to get into bed with him after he describes the process; loss of control during sex. They get into bed and its all over in 2 minutes. Uhura is understandably very upset and disappointed, however Spock now calm and rational tells her a Vulcan outside of Ponn Farr is much better at controlling their sexual response and proceeds to prove it to her.... all night.
It was a funny twist on the concept.

 

[Tim Thomason]

In JTB she never explained what the toughness was. This is your head canon. Humans can, have been and do make no emotional connection during sex for millennia, why do you think prostitution is the world's oldest profession? Consider the practise of one night stands and booty calls.
TOS Kirk had sex with women if it helped the mission, he had no emotional connection to them.

That's why I qualified the statement with a "probably". We all know very little overall about Vulcan (and Vulcan-Human) mating practices, despite many episodes devoted to the subject, and are working in conjecture based on available episodic evidence.

If Discovery told us next episode that Vulcans can only biologically have sex during Pon Farr, it would fit, barely, the episodic evidence (there are questions regarding Saavik, I guess). If Discovery told us that Vulcans get very randy if they are without for more than a few days, with allowances for meditation as a control, it would also fit the episodic evidence. The answer is *probably* somewhere inbetween, with, I believe, a cultural tendency towards chastity (they're practically space monks), but no overall logical taboo against it.

 

[apepa]

I've always liked the concept that Vulcans only mate once in a seven year cycle! They are aliens and have a much longer life span than humans!

It doesn't make sense unless we are to believe Vulcans have either very short gestation periods or breed in litters, which hasn't been the case on screen. Pre-historic Vulcans could have lived to 200+ years, but it's likely the average lifespan was much shorter, just as it was for humans (and still is in some places).

 

[Longinus]

It doesn't make sense unless we are to believe Vulcans have either very short gestation periods or breed in litters, which hasn't been the case on screen. Pre-historic Vulcans could have lived to 200+ years, but it's likely the average lifespan was much shorter, just as it was for humans (and still is in some places).

How does it not make sense? How many offspring you think one couple has to produce for the species to continue? It is quite possible that Vulcans are fertile for many decades, or even over a century; that's plenty of pon farrs. Vulcans also seem to be may ways quite a bit sturdier than humans, so it is possible that infant mortality was not such an issue than it was for humans, even in pre-historic times. Furthermore, considering that Vulcans have been warp capable centuries before humans, and have not colonised half the quadrant, it seems quite likely that their population is quite low, and expands very slowly, if at all. Definitely they breed way slower than humans, who have spread across the space really rapidly.

 

[Tenacity]

How many offspring you think one couple has to produce for the species to continue?

Figure what the natural miscarry rate is, plus infant mortality (including the Kaz Wann (sp)), plus how many as adults will die prior to reaching the age where they have "replace themselves."

Spock was a hybrid and might not have been typical, but his first Pon Farr was when he was in his apparent mid thirties.

Humans (or so I've read) have to produce 2.1 children on average for the species not to decline. Given the seven year separation Spock spoke of, Vulcans would have to survive into their late forties.

Unless they have multiple births.

And being a advanced people, there are ways not to have children.

 

[apepa]

How does it not make sense? How many offspring you think one couple has to produce for the species to continue?

In pre-industrial times and especially pre-agricultural times, lots. Famine, disease, natural disasters, predators, wars, murder, accidents. This is elementary stuff that shouldn't need explaining.

Vulcans also seem to be may ways quite a bit sturdier than humans, so it is possible that infant mortality was not such an issue than it was for humans, even in pre-historic times.

Nope. A species does not become "sturdy" without evolutionary pressures that force those adaptations. Those pressures are the same ones that favour higher birthrates.

Definitely they breed way slower than humans, who have spread across the space really rapidly.

Low (native) birthrates are common in advanced nations today.

 

[Longinus]

Humans (or so I've read) have to produce 2.1 children on average for the species not to decline. Given the seven year separation Spock spoke of, Vulcans would have to survive into their late forties.

Right. Vulcans have a lifespan of over two centuries, so this really is not a problem.

 

[Longinus]

As for evolution, it is certainly possible that a species has a low birth rate, but has evolved factors which reduce miscarriages and infant mortality.

And United Earth is an advanced nation too, yet humans have sprad across the space far faster than the Vulcans.

 

[apepa]

As for evolution, it is certainly possible that a species has a low birth rate, but has evolved factors which reduce miscarriages and infant mortality.

It would be highly unlikely, given that a slow birthrate in itself would mean evolution in Vulcans would be extremely slow. Not to mention that they would still need to survive the harsh Vulcan planet, and all the other ultraviolent Vulcans trying to kill them.

And United Earth is an advanced nation too, yet humans have sprad across the space far faster than the Vulcans.

And...? One point does not disprove the other, however my example does highlight the fact that a low birthrate in a technologically advanced and well-educated species doesn't have anything to do with biology.

 

[Nyotarules]

The franchise never bothered (did not have the budget?) to show colonies that belonged to the other Federation worlds apart from ENT which showed the colonies where the Vulcan priests lived. Tuvok lived on a Vulcan colony, also according to Syran in ENT the 'Vulcans do not explore space' dogma was a myth from the High Command. I doubt once the Federation was up and running only humans bothered to spread their DNA around the quadrant. Its one of the annoying factors of how humancentric the show was.

 

[apepa]

Its one of the annoying factors of how humancentric the show was.

When TOS created the Federation hadn't been conceived of yet; Enterprise was an Earth starship, and even when the Federation became part of Trek lore it only gradually became the assumption that Starfleet was its main military/exploratory agency, rather than a specifically human one. I'm also struggling to remember any appearances of specifically human ships that weren't Starfleet, in the way we frequently saw Vulcan ships.

And God forbid someone making a show about "The Human Adventure" using Human actors and targeting a Human audience would make that show largely about Humans!

Someone needs to create a campaign group to ensure fictional alien species are better represented in our institutionally racist media.

 

[apepa]

When TOS created the Federation hadn't been conceived of yet; Enterprise was an Earth starship, and even when the Federation became part of Trek lore it only gradually became the assumption that Starfleet was its main military/exploratory agency, rather than a specifically human one. I'm also struggling to remember any appearances of specifically human ships that weren't Starfleet, in the way we frequently saw Vulcan ships.

And God forbid someone making a show about "The Human Adventure" using Human actors and targeting a Human audience would make that show largely about Humans!

Someone needs to create a campaign group to ensure fictional alien species are better represented in our institutionally racist media.

...TOS *was* created...

 

[Nyotarules]

^ Once the creators decided the Federation was a multi species organisation with Starfleet as its main defence, exploration agency then the TV shows/movies should have reflected that.
TMP made the effort re the scene when Kirk addresses the crew in the recreation room). Some post TMP books reflect this, one writer came up with it was an experiment by Will Decker for a more diverse crew.
STWOK did not bother much nor did the rest of the movie franchise
DS9 since its set in Bajoran space reflected that
(The JJverse films do a better job)
The novels, well some of the writers jump over hoops to explain why the Starfleet is so humancentric. One of the Titan books covers it, since most of the crew are nonhuman (85%). One of the human commanders are challenged about human culture dominating the ship when its not a human ship, the commander realised her fellow officer was right.

If Starfleet was the human defence force and reflected mainly white North American crew while stating its Earth's main defence and exploration force I would have the same complaint.

 

[apepa]

^ Once the creators decided the Federation was a multi species organisation with Starfleet as its main defence, exploration agency then the TV shows/movies should have reflected that.

You missed the point entirely.

LIKE I ALREADY SAID

The decision was not made all at once, and the whole situation has been pretty nebulous for 50 years.

I shouldn't have to repeat myself on a message board.

 

[1001001]

You missed the point entirely.

LIKE I ALREADY SAID

The decision was not made all at once, and the whole situation has been pretty nebulous for 50 years.

I shouldn't have to repeat myself on a message board.