Is Nu-Who Really a "Kelvin" Timeline?

[starsuperion]

I've been going back and forth on this subject for awhile now. IT'S BEEN NAGGING my subconscious ever since the reboot of the show occurred. I could say that I could rationalize the differences of the Nu series and blame it all on the Time War.. Retcon of events, and future events compounding past classic series canon, Clara, and The difference with the Daleks, Clara, and Clara (rolls eyes), and so on.. By rationalizing the time war as the culprit, I can remain calm..safe.. comfortable in knowing the universe is just kooky because of those crazy Gallifreyans.. But when you really start to think about it, the idea of the Nu-Who series being actually set in an alternative reality, or a "Kelvin" like continuity, the inconsistencies become apparent. The main factor, the clincher for me is the latest Christmas special..

The way the TARDIS was structured in the show, the way the Doctor morphed into a new but slightly different version ( I know that was for effectiveness relating the series to the original Tenth planet episodes) But if the TARDIS in Hartnell days is now slightly different, and the one from An Adventure in space and time was more like the original, then it would almost seem to me as if the new series has a Kelvin time line, after all there's a reason they call it Classic Doctor who and the new series is called a reboot right?? Could it just be because the new series is it's own timeline, and not a true continuation of the original? It's something I KEEP coming back to from time to time. What if the original universe is a separate reality, and this new series is nothing more then it's own alternative "Kelvin" universe? Would that be so bad? I don't know.. I still like the original idea of the Time War being responsible for all of the differences, but then again, there's a lot that can be said to point to an alternative time line..

I can't be the only one who ponders this..

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Nah, it's just a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey...stuff.

 

[Sketcher]

One of the series' mantras is that time can be rewritten, barring certain "fixed events" that must happen no matter what, or else the universe implodes or something. It's a concept that helps wave away continuity errors, and I think, add something special, and heartbreaking where events/people can constantly be altered, but only the Doctor is capable of remembering each and every change, good or bad.

 

[Mr Soak]

As the Doctor should have said:

You can rewrite history. Almost every line!

 

[starsuperion]

Hmm.. but then again, in a show about time lines and changes, I suppose you could say the entire series is a Kelvin time line, however.. Ever notice how the classic series never really did the whole re-writing of history trope? I mean, those classic script writers used story driven McGuffins that worked.. and to me, it does seem like the timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff is just lazy writing.. I mean there is a place for the time altering stuff, but not used all the time as it seemed that Moffat did as a crutch or to explain away a flaw in writing.. RTD did it a little, but mainly to show there are consequences to messing with time.. I still think that something can be said for the new series having a Kelvin like feel, especially after seeing that under-gallery Louvre wall art from the 50th special in the Tenth Planet TARDIS..

 

[Christopher]

Seriously? The original Doctor Who had nothing remotely like a coherent continuity over the course of its run. I mean, the early years were made when TV was assumed to be disposable, so they didn't even save the recordings. The assumption was that it was a kids' show so the audience would turn over every few years anyway, so there was no incentive to remain consistent with the past. Plus it went through so many different producers with different ideas. So it contradicted itself all the time. This is a show where the Doctor said in the first season that "History cannot be changed, not one line," and then a year later was trying to prevent the Meddling Monk from changing history. This is a show that had three different versions of Atlantis. This is a show that brought back the Brigadier and completely forgot that the UNIT episodes had been supposedly set a decade or so in the future.

So the changes from old to new are just more of the same looseness. The modern series has been just as cavalier about continuity as the old. A few years back I did a wholesale rewatch of DW, Torchwood, and Sarah Jane in release order, and it was surprising how poorly they fit together. Except when they were crossing over, or when SJA was picking up leftover threads from DW, they pretty much ignored each other, with massive, worldshaking crises and events in one show being completely unmentioned in the others. Continuity in Who has always been optional and flexible, no less in the new than in the old. The only real difference is that the new series made up handwavey excuses for it like the Time War and the mutability of the timeline.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Seriously? The original Doctor Who had nothing remotely like a coherent continuity over the course of its run.

I thoroughly, fundamentally disagree.

 

[jaime]

Nope, one big mess of continuity. Even the books no one likes to talk about, I think someone smashed the Klein Bottle and spilt it everywhere. The continuity is loose sometimes, tight when it needs to be, and often self-repairing over time..especially when the lunatics are now running the asylum. (Moffat alone seemed to love fixing continuity snafus)
The classic show really did do changing timelines, and the scene that shows that fairly subtlety is the famous scene with the Doctor explaining the mutability to Sarah in Pyramids of Mars.
As to the contradiction between The Aztecs and The Time Meddler...well...that’s obviously the Doctor insisting on ‘obeying the law’ as it were, and then stopping someone who is breaking it. For more early ‘wibbley wobbley Timey wimey stuff’ go look at The Space Museum.

Oh...and the doctors changed face as the first (a) is explained in dialogue, and (b) has been done before with Richard Hurndall. Sometimes you just have to recast.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

For a show that was never supposed to last beyond a couple of seasons, and has sustained viewer interest on-and-off for 50 years, I would argue that it has EXCELLENT continuity. Especially when you consider it was also a show that was almost never repeated back in the day, and with no real chance of repeat or worse, ownership of any given serial. There are hiccups, but so what? Every show has them, and Star Trek is guilty of that, too.

 

[starsuperion]

Continuity is one thing, but developing stories centered around timey wimey wibbly wobbly temporal plots were not the sole focus of the classic era, while it is hard to separate the new series from such contrivances and their hard core lean on them as a crutch for the writer (Moffat) while in the classic era, they may have had some continuity errors, but much of that was fleshed out in the novels written on the episodes themselves. What strikes me is how if you step back from the small continuity discussions, and look at both series, it's clear story wise how much of the new series builds its foundations in stories on easily using a time line change to resolve problems. In the classic universe, much of that was done the hard way by the Doctor and using only his wits.. even when facing fellow time lords, we never saw the doctor jump in his Tardis and go back in time to see what he was doing like in under the lake with Capaldi. I'm just saying Nu-Who relies too heavily on the timey wimey trope to solve issues, while timey wimey stuff was present in the classic series, as was previously said... those writers used it subtlety and efficiently so as to not be the focus of the actions that lead to the protagonist winning, rather winning by their wits and ingenuity alone, I sometimes feel the new series dumbs down everything. I mean, people are supposed to be smarter and more sophisticated as generations progress, but it seems with Nu-Who the modern style of story telling is bubblegum and popcorn (throw away) and low brow in it's story telling. How many of us could pretty much predict Moffats episodes and their conclusions? I for one became bored with the formulaic system implemented. I guess with the selfie generation, and skinny jeans, or hoodie crowd, light and fun is all that they care about with an attention span only able to take in the show for about 15 minutes at a time in between twitter, instagram, and facebook. I kinda miss those really good well written stories that provoked thinking over emotional reaction to social events in the past or allegorical moral preaching.. I miss the suspenseful stories, the adventure stories, and the exploration aspect that was felt in the classic era.. We knew the Doctor was familiar with a lot of the universe in the classic era, but there was a lot the Doctor didn't know, and places the doctor had never been but only heard of..

In the Nu-who series the Doctor knows all, sees all, narcissistically pronounces himself the on-coming storm, and gives grandiose speeches about himself and his moral superiority of never having a gun, and always being unpredictable.. (okay so we knew that, but at some point rather then show the doctor that way, they decided it needed to be reiterated over and over and over again, including the Doctor's pimp cheerleader River to explain how wonderful the Doctor is to everyone in case you forgot) it was a bit sickening to be truthful.. The doctor lost humble and quiet smart, to loud and proud and over the top. Silly, because it cheapens and dumbs down the character, along with the simplistic stories, and subject matter. It wasn't hat Capaldi's era was too complex IMHO that lead to the ratings drop, it was because the focus was all companion and showing off all the time. The Caretaker?? Clara, Clara, Clara.. What happened to the focus on being lost in space, randomizer, events that take control of the tardis crew?

So there is a difference between the two eras.. While much of the Classic series had great stories and low production budgets, the modern series is self absorbed and superficial. It has great graphics, special effects, top notch filming and editing. Let's not forget Lighting which is super important.. But beyond fleeting stories, nostalgia thrown in to keep the viewer interested, the lost aspect of exploration, wonder, and adventure seemed to be stamped out in favour of the villain of the week, and the overall arch story with the arrogant and super amazing doctor solving the problem with either wibbly wobbly timey wimey contrivances, or just shouting about how amazing he is and over and over and over again reminding us in cheap dialogue meant for laughs..

At least.. that's how I see the differences.

 

[Christopher]

For a show that was never supposed to last beyond a couple of seasons, and has sustained viewer interest on-and-off for 50 years, I would argue that it has EXCELLENT continuity.

Up to a point, sure. But it wasn't religiously adhered to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Lots of great works of fiction have really loose continuity, and it's not an insult to point that out, because continuity is just one tool in the artist's kit and some works of series fiction rely on it more than others. In this era of Wikis and home video, fans have become fixated on small details and start screaming "ALTERNATE UNIVERSE" every time a minor tweak in those details is made, but that's not how most storytellers over the decades have treated series continuity. It's been more common to take a broad-strokes approach, to keep the big, obvious things reasonably consistent but not be afraid to retcon the details that most audience members won't notice or care about. Like how Marvel Comics pretends that every story published since 1939 is still part of the Marvel Universe, but all the ones from 1961 onward happened within the past 15 years or so and their exact details and time setting get changed with every retelling. There have been many, many changes in detail, but the fictional conceit is that it's still a single continuous reality. Because an imaginary continuity can contain that kind of contradiction between unity and inconsistency in a way that real life can't.

Anyway, the point is that the changes in look and detail between the old Doctor Who and the new are no greater in degree or kind than the changes that accumulated over the course of the original series. So there's no need to posit the new series as any kind of "timeline reboot," except insofar as the Time War storyline already implies that there have been changes.

 

[Starkers]

The doctor lost humble and quiet smart, to loud and proud and over the top.

...with the arrogant and super amazing doctor solving the problem with either wibbly wobbly timey wimey contrivances, or just shouting about how amazing he is and over and over and over again reminding us in cheap dialogue meant for laughs..

You have met Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and Colin Baker, right?

 

[The Wormhole]

"Continuity is only whatever I can remember on any given day." - Terence Dicks

 

[starsuperion]

You have met Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and Colin Baker, right?

Colin to some extent was brash and bragadosious.. but it was less promoted by the companions then now. It seems like when they speak of the so called "on coming storm" they were talking about Superman.. Rather then the Doctor.. Even with Pertwee's flair, the new series burries any of the older series with it's smug arrogance and self inflating of the Doctor.. lest we forget the River song speech in the Library about the Doctor, or the big headed speech at Stone Henge by Matt Smith.. or even David Tenant's rabbit scene in the 50th with his "On coming storm" nonesense. I really doubt you can compare the classic doctor's to the self promotion and narcassism on display almost every episode in the new series. Let's not even go to the pissing contest between robin hood and the Doctor while in prison.. Ughh.. (face palms like Picard)

 

[Butters]

After reading the whole thread, I’ve forgotten what I wanted to say, but this isn’t a kelvin style reboot, and to call it a parallel timeline misses the point a bit.

The doctor talks of versions of reality, parallel universes and altered history.

Pete Tyler died alone and with a strange blond who stayed with him, The Doctor did and didn’t die at trenzalore. The Cybermen came from mondas, telos and parallel earth. The Dalek origin is equally ballsed.

This isn’t the sort of continuity you can timeline in any meaningful way.

 

[Christopher]

After reading the whole thread, I’ve forgotten what I wanted to say, but this isn’t a kelvin style reboot, and to call it a parallel timeline misses the point a bit.

That's right. The modern Doctor Who has taken the stance that time is mutable and frequently rewritten by time travel -- sort of like what both Timeless and Legends of Tomorrow are doing lately, with the time travelers pretty much giving up on keeping history unchanged and instead trying to screw things up for the better. That's its excuse for the changes in continuity between the old series and the new, with the Time War having wrought a lot of changes on history, and the cracks in time then being used by Moffat to wipe out bits of Russell T. Davies continuity he didn't want to bother with. I think this was basically a canonization of a longtime fan theory for the inconsistencies in the original series, even though the original series never bothered to make excuses for its discontinuities.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Pete Tyler died alone and with a strange blond who stayed with him, The Doctor did and didn’t die at trenzalore. The Cybermen came from mondas, telos and parallel earth. The Dalek origin is equally ballsed.

This isn’t the sort of continuity you can timeline in any meaningful way.

And don't forget about the three different downfalls for Atlantis!

 

[starsuperion]

That's right. The modern Doctor Who has taken the stance that time is mutable and frequently rewritten by time travel -- sort of like what both Timeless and Legends of Tomorrow are doing lately, with the time travelers pretty much giving up on keeping history unchanged and instead trying to screw things up for the better. That's its excuse for the changes in continuity between the old series and the new, with the Time War having wrought a lot of changes on history, and the cracks in time then being used by Moffat to wipe out bits of Russell T. Davies continuity he didn't want to bother with. I think this was basically a canonization of a longtime fan theory for the inconsistencies in the original series, even though the original series never bothered to make excuses for its discontinuities.

I agree, except the inconsistencies in the classic era were not as glaringly obvious nor central to the entirety of it's story telling and continuity as in Nu-Who.. The classic may have had inconsistent things that were there, but if you step back and look at the classic VS Nu-Who in it's entirety, the whole basis of the new series story telling relies too heavily on Time travel muck ups and twisting realities..

I think the strength of the writing of the classic series meant they didn't have to rely on such contrivances to advance the story or to make it compelling.. look at Warriors Gate, or Logopolis.. Whole swaths of the universe were wiped out by entropy in a flash, and yet the impact of what the Master had wrought was powerfully felt when you see the shock and horror in Nyssa's eyes when she learns her entire race and species were wiped out of existence. To me, the lay writing style of the current series has to use the twisting of timelines as a crutch because straight adventure and story telling isn't their forte' enough to make it interesting as it was in the classic era.

Plus back in the classic era, the Time Lords could always be counted on to fix errors in the timelines.. in the new series, the Time lords can't seem to make a ham sandwich without freaking out and needing Ohila or the Doctor to decide which mustard is needed on which bread.. Sad..

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Eh, I wouldn't say the inconstancies are anymore glaringly obvious now as they were before. The only difference now is we have the internet and home media, neither of which were available during the classic era. Rest assured, if they did, those issues would be nitpicked away just as you are now with the new series.

 

[starsuperion]

Eh, I wouldn't say the inconstancies are anymore glaringly obvious now as they were before. The only difference now is we have the internet and home media, neither of which were available during the classic era. Rest assured, if they did, those issues would be nitpicked away just as you are now with the new series.

I do like how the inconsistency of the classic TARDIS console rooms were explained by a Desktop theme, brilliant! Think about how many problems the set ran into over time. The set pieces in the mind robber come to mind very clearly.. it's such a great move to take a behind the scenes issue, like having to recast Hartnell, but with the TARDIS and making those issues work in a way that just adds to the show! Now that is one inconsistency I think is very likeable and to see the history behind that, it's amazing actually, amazing how that came to be.