USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[Saul]

I don't see how it's so different. Remember this comparison?

It's quite faithful. It's like the TOSprise with a typical eaves facelift. He squishes it, slaps on some wings, fins, etc, and sweeps the engines back a bit. There's not much to worry about here. Be thankful he didn't square off the nay-celles.

If the Discofans are complaining that it's too retro, or too "atomic age," then shouldn't the purist fans be comfortable with it, maybe be pleased?

I think it's a good middle ground that keeps both sides happy (made myself laugh there). I think we should be glad it wasn't changed more. It's still visually recognizable as the 60s ship yet in detail it's updated. It was a very gentle approach and it was done as a "starship design" not just a "design" like the JJprise.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah, that's his style, in a nutshell. Ugh.

Other then the holes in the Pylons, nothing in this design is really his style. It is quite a departure from all his previous designs.

 

[lawman]

I'm sure he would've gone much further if not restrained. But the changes that were made have "Eaves" written all over them.

 

[Tuskin38]

I'm sure he would've gone much further if not restrained. But the changes that were made have "Eaves" written all over them.

I'm not seeing it.

He also wasn't the only designer on the project.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm not seeing it.

He also wasn't the only designer on the project.

I'm not sure if it was Eaves' design, but this thing very strongly resembles the Exeter class cruiser that was designed for STO and was billed as a pretty straightforward Constitution refit.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it's a good middle ground that keeps both sides happy (made myself laugh there). I think we should be glad it wasn't changed more. It's still visually recognizable as the 60s ship yet in detail it's updated. It was a very gentle approach and it was done as a "starship design" not just a "design" like the JJprise.

Same here.

Actually, as a possible lore based explanation, perhaps the saucer section was ejected in an emergency, necessitating a replacement of some modules.

 

[Belz...]

I really like the design but I just can't stand the whole "visual reboot too far" thing. TOS Enterprise with a bit more surface detail was all that was needed. For me this ship continues to be a symbol of the disregard the showrunners have for all the hard work put in by previous productions. It just says to me "we don't care".

No the issue is that they care more about the general audience than they do fans.

...as well they should.

Yep, which leads to the amazing idea that the Enterprise was refit, enlarged, then unrefit and shrunk between "The Cage" and "Where No Man..."

Only if one entirely refuses to understand the concept of retcon, or is obsessed with strict continuity to the point of pathology.

The Enterprise was already smaller and less crewed in The Cage than it was in the following episodes. Face it, this kind of stuff happens all the time in Star Trek.

So what? Casual watchers at air shows can't tell the difference between an F-14 and an F-15. That doesn't mean the F-14 is just an F-15 with skinnier wings.

That's not a bad point. However, the Shepard class was in part built from bits of the Shenzhou. It's a bit of a different situation. And several posters here are not casual Trek viewers.

My headcanon is and shall forever remain that the TMP Enterprise is the way the ship always looked and the refit was just a replacement of its old weapons, drive core and equipment.

See, some posters understand the concept of retcon!

A more reasonable expectation might have been that a new Star Trek series made over 50 years after the original shouldn't go back and revisit the setting of the original. They should have just left that time alone and moved on.

Honestly I don't understand why prequels are made so much. Discovery could've been set after Nemesis and it would've been fine.

However, doing a prequel does not entail that one can't update original designs for one reason or another. A lot of fans don't understand that, but to general audiences the TOS look is silly.

 

[Jadeb]

No the issue is that they care more about the general audience than they do fans.

...as well they should.

I wish the writers took this approach. Instead we got ponderous Klingon infighting -- with subtitles! -- that taxed even existing fans and a half-season of fun-but-fannish hokum in the Mirror Universe. No need to pass the Velveeta.

I'm not surprised people are confused about what the show is trying to do. These are odd choices if the show is aiming to attract non-fans.

 

[Gonzo]

I wish the writers took this approach. Instead we got ponderous Klingon infighting -- with subtitles! -- that taxed even existing fans and a half-season of fun-but-fannish hokum in the Mirror Universe. No need to pass the Velveeta.

I'm not surprised people are confused about what the show is trying to do. These are odd choices if the show is aiming to attract non-fans.

The Klingon dialogue was just excruciating to listen to, I can only imagine how difficult it was for the actors, made even worse by all the prosthetics and dentures they had to wear.

Better if they had just used human looking Klingons and tied it in to the events in Enterprise, with the cure finally being found towards the end of the ToS series but before the first of the original films.

Problem solved.

 

[Longinus]

I wish the writers took this approach. Instead we got ponderous Klingon infighting -- with subtitles! -- that taxed even existing fans and a half-season of fun-but-fannish hokum in the Mirror Universe. No need to pass the Velveeta.

I'm not surprised people are confused about what the show is trying to do. These are odd choices if the show is aiming to attract non-fans.

Exactly.

 

[Belz...]

And that's exactly what I meant: there's no pleasing fans. Better ignore them.

 

[ITDUDE]

And that's exactly what I meant: there's no pleasing fans. Better ignore them.

The problem is that producers are doing both. They are definitely ignoring fans, while at same time saying they are doing everything for fans.

 

[Belz...]

Well, doing things halfway is a sure-fire way to lose both sides of the audience. Anyway, we'll see.

 

[Prax]

Other then the holes in the Pylons, nothing in this design is really his style. It is quite a departure from all his previous designs.

and the fins! You can't forget the fins.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's not a bad point. However, the Shepard class was in part built from bits of the Shenzhou.

No, it visibly was not. At most, you could say it was built using similar shapes, but the proportions, surface details and textures are dramatically different. In particular, the only two parts these two ships have in common -- the bulge on its underside and the saucer rim -- have different geometries and surface details altogether. Walker's upper saucer also isn't equivalent to Shenzhou's lower, and Walker's lower saucer is much flatter and differently proportioned than Shenzhou's upper.

To use another aviation analogy: the A-6 intruder also has the same wing design as the F-14 Tomcat. And I don't mean similar, I don't mean "based on," they literally take the exact same wing shape and geometry from the A-6, took the wing tanks and leading edge slats out of it stuck it on a swivel joint for the Tomcat.

Just saying: there are more differences than there are similarities. I'd EXPECT there to be some similarities between two starships designed by the same people (either in-universe shipyards or same graphic artist) but they are not so similar that you could legitimately claim one is just a modification of the other.

Honestly I don't understand why prequels are made so much. Discovery could've been set after Nemesis and it would've been fine.

I'm convinced Bryan Fuller's idea was for the Discovery to do a "sliders" style jump from one alternate universe/timeline to the next, beginning with the Mirror Universe and remaining stranded/lost thereafter. Trek canon sort of established that the Terran Empire was basically obliterated by the TNG era, so unless they took a (ridiculous) page out of STO's playbook, it wouldn't have really worked.

More to the point, the fan reaction wouldn't have been all that different no matter when it was set. They still would have cried foul for all the things the TNG era supposedly established that Discovery deviates dramatically from. At least in this case they're stepping into a time period that is relatively poorly established and that gives them a bit more room to maneuver.

 

[Prax]

His idea was to cover every Trek era, each season with a different cast.

 

[Belz...]

No, it visibly was not.

We're running around in circles. You seem to be forgetting one argument and we're dancing between one argument and the other because of that. No offense.

I _immediately_ noticed the similarities in the second episode. And then the pictures, when put side-by-side, show a STRONG similarity. I know you want to argue otherwise, but you've had actual posters saying this in this very thread. This alone counters your sentence quoted above.

At most, you could say it was built using similar shapes, but the proportions, surface details and textures are dramatically different.

Oh, they've made a lot of alterations and both ships look really good. But the similarities are obvious to even the untrained eye.

In particular, the only two parts these two ships have in common -- the bulge on its underside and the saucer rim

Again, no, the pylons are different but similar, the whole shape of the ship is very similar but flipped.

-- have different geometries and surface details altogether. Walker's upper saucer also isn't equivalent to Shenzhou's lower, and Walker's lower saucer is much flatter and differently proportioned than Shenzhou's upper.

Just saying: there are more differences than there are similarities.

I suppose that, like everything else, it depends on one's perspective. I see details, you see the number of differences. And it's not really comparable to airplanes since ships tend to have more vastly different shapes because they are more designed than practical.

I'm convinced Bryan Fuller's idea was for the Discovery to do a "sliders" style jump from one alternate universe/timeline to the next, beginning with the Mirror Universe and remaining stranded/lost thereafter. Trek canon sort of established that the Terran Empire was basically obliterated by the TNG era, so unless they took a (ridiculous) page out of STO's playbook, it wouldn't have really worked.

Well, canon hasn't really stopped them so far.

 

[David cgc]

Indeed. If you want to revisit the original (even if just to bank on audience familiarity), be true to it. If you want to go in all kinds of new creative directions, do it in uncharted territory. The frustrating thing about DSC, as seems clear to all except its most ardent defenders, is that it wants to do both of those things at the same time, and then asks audiences to pretend they're not at odds.

It even happens in this very scene. You have a redesigned (to whatever extent, but definitively not meant to be mere technical update of the Enterprise as it appeared in TOS) version of the original ship, followed by the most absurdly faithful arrangement of the TOS theme that's been made since 1969. Take your pick, any of the TOS movies, the Kelvinverse credits arrangement, even the 2006 TOS-R recording aren't as exquisitely faithful to what audiences heard on TV in the '60s. And it doesn't fit at all with the rest of the score of the show. You could've just dropped in the Defiant or TOS-R models into the 3D scene and just the lighting and camera would've made it fit more into the DSC look than the end credits fit with the DSC sound.

Like, if they'd modeled the Enterprise with the philosophy Jeff Russo had recording that theme music, there would've been no windows on the left side and you'd be able to see exposed wiring running down the nacelle pylon.

 

[Tuskin38]

and the fins! You can't forget the fins.

Eh the Refit nacelles had (small) fins

But yes, John Eaves has fins in some of his designs.

 

[Jadeb]

Yeah, that struck me as odd. But I took it as a signal that we have now arrived at a more familiar TOS universe. The Federation has been tested, pushed to the very brink and affirmed its values ... only to have the showrunners turn around and reveal a Section 31 plot for season 2.