Did Pike replace Garth as Fleet Captain?

[Herbert]

I get the impression from the way Kirk & others speak about him that Garth being committed is a relatively recent thing. Their references to how Garth ended up at Elba II have an air of disbelief about them, as if the news is still sinking in and they can't quite believe it. I did a search on the words "mutiny" and "mutinied" over on Star Trek Script Search, and in "The Tholian Web," we have this exchange:

That's only a short time before "Whom Gods Destroy," so maybe Garth's crew mutinied very recently, sometime between stardate 5693.2 (TTW) and stardate 5718.3 (WGD). It's possible that word of the mutiny of Garth's crew hadn't reached the Enterprise yet at the time of "The Tholian Web," but from what we hear in "The Menagerie" and other episodes, it seems like subspace chatter makes rumors travel pretty quickly.

One thing I've learned during my short time on this board is that many people actually enjoy concocting all these theories and alternate explanations for stuff, some of which are damn near batshit crazy. I'm not saying yours falls into that category but I chalk this up to a continuity error nothing more. Trying to read more into it 50 years later may be fun (I guess, for some) but ultimately pointless. There is no "in universe" explanation. It all boils down to no one was keeping track of these things during the original series and thus you have these errors and inconsistencies. If someone was in fact in charge of continuity, then they did a piss poor job of it.

 

[Phaser Two]

I don't know. We all know that much of this stuff derives from continuity errors on the part of TPTB, but I think it's interesting to see if you can make sense of it within the fictional universe. This one (the mutiny) isn't hard to explain. Neither is Khan recognizing Chekov, e.g.

I get how the exercise would become tiresome and some might not want to bother, but hey, we can't all be the creators and writers of DISC.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Historically, the "captain of the fleet" or "fleet captain" was a senior captain posted as the chief of staff/second in command to a flag officer and therefore broadly equivalent to a commodore-by-post (squadron commander ranked captain) in protocol but inferior in personal authority (as opposed to the delegated authority as the admiral's representitive):

OF-7 Rear Admiral/Major General
OF-6 Flotilla or Rear Admiral/Brigadier General
OF-5b* Commodore/Brigadier
OF-5a Fleet Captain
OF-5 Captain/Colonel
OF-4 Commander/Lt Colonel
OF-3 Lt Commander/Major.

* May post as OF-6 depending on national policies.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

One thing I've learned during my short time on this board is that many people actually enjoy concocting all these theories and alternate explanations for stuff, some of which are damn near batshit crazy. I'm not saying yours falls into that category but I chalk this up to a continuity error nothing more. Trying to read more into it 50 years later may be fun (I guess, for some) but ultimately pointless. There is no "in universe" explanation. It all boils down to no one was keeping track of these things during the original series and thus you have these errors and inconsistencies. If someone was in fact in charge of continuity, then they did a piss poor job of it.

Well yes, of course I know that most of these things are just continuity errors. But I find it a fun exercise in creativity to see if I can find logical explanations for these mistakes. I don't find it especially fun or interesting to just go, "Ehh, it was a mistake, what are you gonna do?"

I'm honestly wondering why you even bothered looking in this thread if speculation along these lines seems so pointless to you.

 

[Herbert]

I'm honestly wondering why you even bothered looking in this thread if speculation along these lines seems so pointless to you.

I'm beginning to wonder myself. However, I don't always know the details of a thread until I open it, as was the case with your thread title. Still, point taken. I need to avoid these types of discussions.

 

[J.T.B.]

Historically, the "captain of the fleet" or "fleet captain" was a senior captain posted as the chief of staff/second in command to a flag officer and therefore broadly equivalent to a commodore-by-post (squadron commander ranked captain) in protocol but inferior in personal authority (as opposed to the delegated authority as the admiral's representitive):

Sort of... In Royal Navy of the late 1700s and 1800s, a captain of the fleet was usually a rear admiral himself, and was only appointed on a station big enough to have a commander-in-chief and ten or more ships of the line, and generally other flag officers as well. In that case, he took normal precedence by his rank as a flag officer. In the rare instance that he was a captain, though, his rank while CotF was senior to any captain and junior to any rear admiral on the station. Also, if he was a captain, he was allowed to wear the uniform of a rear admiral while serving as CotF.

The captain of the fleet's authority is a little trickier. He did have the power to issue orders in the fleet, even to more senior officers, but this was supposed to be limited to matters of administration, supplies, repairs and such. Orders for ship movements, officer assignments etc. would come from the CinC. The captain of the fleet wasn't second in command in the sense that he wouldn't be next in line for the CinC position (unless he was also the next senior-most officer in the command), but because he did handle a lot of the "paperwork" side of running the fleet, he did function like an XO in some ways. But, there's another wrinkle, if the CinC was killed in battle, the CotF would take over and issue orders from the flagship until the next most senior officer could come aboard and take command.

As the 1800s went on, French military staff ideas reached even into the Royal Navy, and the title of "chief of staff" began to take over. In WW1, Jellicoe's Grand Fleet was so big it had both a chief of staff, a rear admiral who focused on operations, and a captain of the fleet who handled materiel and maintenance and had the temporary rank of commodore first class. With the CinC, the three rotated watches around the clock on the flag bridge at sea.

In the much smaller US Navy, the "fleet captain" was similar to the British position, but didn't carry any temporary rank or order-giving authority. Even in the big Civil War USN, fleet captains were usually commanders or even lieutenant commanders. In 1869 the fleet captain title was replace by chief of staff. Flag-rank chiefs of staff didn't really become a thing in the USN till WW2.

I'll show myself out.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Interesting stuff. All I have ever heard of for Fleet Captain was that it was a brevet to allow a superior to designate a squadron commander who might not have naturally had the post (e.g., who might have achieved his rank at a later date). How and when did this usage come about, and when was it discontinued? Or was it?

 

[J.T.B.]

Interesting stuff. All I have ever heard of for Fleet Captain was that it was a brevet to allow a superior to designate a squadron commander who might not have naturally had the post (e.g., who might have achieved his rank at a later date). How and when did this usage come about, and when was it discontinued? Or was it?

That's not historical AFAIK. That sounds more like the old British temporary rank of commodore, which allowed a captain to hold a flag-officer-like command before he was senior enough to be a rear admiral. Commodore only became a permanent Royal Navy rank between captain and rear admiral about 20 years ago.

Brevet ranks are another subject that is widely misunderstood, but while they were used, they were an army (or marines) thing, navies didn't use them.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Commodore only became a permanent Royal Navy rank between captain and rear admiral about 20 years ago.

Actually, there's still some confusion on that point, as in the recent case of Jeremy Kyd who was promoted to Commodore either during his land tour as head of the naval college or for his tour as OC, UK RFTG but will serve his current sea tour (CO, HMS Queen Elizabeth) as a Captain.

 

[J.T.B.]

Actually, there's still some confusion on that point, as in the recent case of Jeremy Kyd who was promoted to Commodore either during his land tour as head of the naval college or for his tour as OC, UK RFTG but will serve his current sea tour (CO, HMS Queen Elizabeth) as a Captain.

Temporary exceptions are always possible, but there is no question that since 1997 promotion to commodore has been the standard step between captain and rear admiral. If you look at the Navy List, there is a list of commodores, instead of it being a notation by names on the captains list as it was formerly.

 

[Commishsleer]

Well yes, of course I know that most of these things are just continuity errors. But I find it a fun exercise in creativity to see if I can find logical explanations for these mistakes. I don't find it especially fun or interesting to just go, "Ehh, it was a mistake, what are you gonna do?"

I'm honestly wondering why you even bothered looking in this thread if speculation along these lines seems so pointless to you.

Its all supposed to be in good fun isn't it?
I like it when someone points out something interesting in an episode that I haven't noticed even though I have probably seen it 20 times.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Me too! I love looking at familiar things in a new way.

That's part of why I'm a Timeliner. It makes me see connections between the episodes I didn't see before.

 

[Shawnster]

I never took it that there was only one Fleet Captain in Starfleet. So I never took it that Pike replaced Garth as fleet captain.

Actually, I associated Pike's promotion to fleet captain with his assignment of working with cadets on a J Class starship.

 

[Phaser Two]

Me too! I love looking at familiar things in a new way.

That's part of why I'm a Timeliner. It makes me see connections between the episodes I didn't see before.

What's a Timeliner, Jonny?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Just somebody who creates their own ST timelines.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Actually, I associated Pike's promotion to fleet captain with his assignment of working with cadets on a J Class starship.

Me, too. I mean, the episode says as much.

 

[lawman]

...It all boils down to no one was keeping track of these things during the original series and thus you have these errors and inconsistencies. If someone was in fact in charge of continuity, then they did a piss poor job of it.

That's an unfair statement. Star Trek retained the firm De Forest Research for consulting on both scientific accuracy and show continuity from the early development stages on through the entire series — and beyond, through (at least) Wrath of Khan. And the firm did a very good job of it, earning the show considerable praise at the time for being far more consistent on both fronts than other TV shows of the era. The memos going back-and-forth on every script are well documented and preserved.

 

[Harvey]

That's an unfair statement. Star Trek retained the firm De Forest Research for consulting on both scientific accuracy and show continuity from the early development stages on through the entire series — and beyond, through (at least) Wrath of Khan. And the firm did a very good job of it, earning the show considerable praise at the time for being far more consistent on both fronts than other TV shows of the era. The memos going back-and-forth on every script are well documented and preserved.

My understanding is they worked on the Star Trek features until Joan Pearce spun off her own company, which then handled clearance for all the Star Trek shows and movies. Not 100% sure when that handover took place, but I know they worked on TWOK, since I have those reports from the Nick Meyer papers in Iowa.

The de Forest Research (per Kellam de Forest, who I had the pleasure of interviewing twice, the "de" should be lower case) memos are some of my favorites from the files at UCLA.

Was it really praised at the time for exceptional consistency, though? The de Forest firm did similar work for countless other shows at the same time, and were critics really tracking the minutiae the way fans were?

 

[lawman]

I think this piece is a good example of the kind of praise I was talking about. It focuses more on the scientific side of things (no surprise given the publication), but if you've looked over the memos (and actually interviewed de Forest! cool!) you're no doubt aware how much time was devoted to minutiae of the show that went well beyond science, especially as the backstory started to accumulate.

And personally, I've always thought Trimble's original Concordance exemplified just what a good job TOS and TAS did back in their day, long before the "modern era" of Trek continuity or (even later) the Internet. If the show had been the kind of continuity mishmash that was typical of TV at the time, a book like that simply wouldn't have been possible. Sure, Trek had its fair share of "early installment weirdness" and such, but on the whole it did a solid job of worldbuilding. I think that's one of the big reasons it developed such a lasting fandom, IMHO.

(Now, what can we make of the truly bizarre coincidence that the show had someone named Kellam de Forest in charge of research, and a completely unrelated person named DeForest Kelly in the cast? Both names are distinctive enough on their own, but to find them connected like that really induces a moment of mental whiplash!...)

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Some examples of TOS showing continuity when they didn't have to...

From "By Any Other Name," referring back to "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

KIRK: What happened to your ship?
ROJAN: There is an energy barrier at the rim of your galaxy.
KIRK: Yes, I know. We've been there.

From "The Trouble With Tribbles," referring back to "Errand of Mercy":

CHEKOV: Under terms of the Organian Peace Treaty, one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently.
KIRK: And unfortunately, though the Klingons are brutal and aggressive, they are most efficient.

KOLOTH: I might also add that under terms of the Organian Peace Treaty, you cannot refuse us.

The Organian Peace Treaty is referred to again in "Day of the Dove":

KANG: For three years, the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at peace. A treaty we have honoured to the letter.
KIRK: We took no action against your ship, Kang.

There's an unexpected reference to Christopher Pike when the computer reads out the record of Mirror-Kirk's command in "Mirror, Mirror":

KIRK: Read out official record of current command.
COMPUTER: Captain James T. Kirk succeeded to command ISS Enterprise through assassination of Captain Christopher Pike. First action, suppression of Gorlan uprising through destruction of rebel home planet. Second action, execution of five thousand colonists on Vega Nine.

From "The Deadly Years," referring back to "The Corbomite Maneuver":

KIRK: Message. From Enterprise to Starfleet Command this sector. Have inadvertently encroached upon Romulan Neutral Zone. Surrounded and under heavy Romulan attack. Escape impossible, shields failing. Will implement destruct order using corbomite device recently installed. Since this will result in the destruction of the Enterprise and all matter in a two hundred thousand kilometre diameter and establish a corresponding dead zone, all Federation ships will avoid this area for the next four solar years. Explosion will take place in one minute. Kirk, commanding Enterprise, out. Mister Sulu, course one eight eight degrees, mark fourteen. Speed, warp factor eight. Stand by.

"I, Mudd" refers back to the end of "Mudd's Women," where Mudd predicted they'd throw away the key if Kirk testified at his trial:

CHEKOV: You know this man, Captain?
KIRK: Oh, do I know him. Harcourt Fenton Mudd, thief...
MUDD: Come now.
KIRK: Swindler and con man...
MUDD: Entrepreneur.
KIRK: Liar and rogue...
MUDD: Did I leave you with that impression?
KIRK: He belongs in jail, which is where I thought I left you, Mudd.
MUDD: And thereby hangs a tale, yes.

KIRK: All right, Harry, explain. How did you get here? We left you in custody after that affair on the Rigel mining planet.

Spock says that his father was an ambassador in "The Naked Time" and sure enough, when we meet Sarek in "Journey to Babel" the next season, he's the Vulcan Ambassador. (JTB didn't contain any references to Amanda being a teacher, though.)

Heck, even in the second pilot, WNMHGB, Kirk tells Gary "I've been worried about you ever since that night on Deneb IV" and in Gary's psych profile, seen onscreen for just a few seconds, his telepathic encounter with the natives of Deneb IV is detailed. And remember that this was done in an age before VCRs and the ability to record or pause programs.

None of these references really had to be in the episodes, but it's cool that they were. The makers of TOS obviously cared about making the show as consistent as possible.