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USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

That was absolutely stellar article. Very long, but very thoughtful. And it perfectly describes the reasons why I cannot tolerate the Pine-Kirk. This toxic masculinity infused fratboy is such an character assassination of epic proportions, that it makes me sick. (He is more tolerable in Beyond where he resembles Shatner-Kirk a bit more.)

"Toxic masculinity"?

The connie and any DSC ship do not look like they are the same period. The issue with the connie is its a mesh mash of styles. Its part DSC and too much space age styling left. It could be fixed as those left over oddities are the issue.

The connie is the oldest looking ship we have seen.

The problem with all of this is that it assumes that there's got to be a "look" to ships of the same period. In fact, there's no reason why UFP ships can't be just big blocks with engines strapped on them, but the Federation obviously goes for the elegant designs, so it's in a way a statement; an expression and projection of its culture and power. And since design is the thing they're going for as well as function, there's really no reason why all ships should be kitbashes of one another or at least look like they're cast from the same mold. I see no reason why the Shenzhou, Kelvin, Discovery and Constitution can't be from more-or-less the same time period.

Yes, maybe 3, but clearily older than the other ships we have seen.

Again, that's speculation. You're assuming that you can tell what a 23rd century ship "should" look like.

You can not really think this looks newer than the walker.

I wouldn't know, since I don't have a degree in 23rd century starship design. And neither do you.

Do you really think that something like the Galaxy class would be impossible to design in Kirk's time? Hell, it was possible to design it in 1987!

The only one it fits with is the Shepard Class.

The nacelles don't match any of the other ships.

So all nacelles from ships in the same era must be the same? Why would you think that?
 
They obviously know what they're doing or the show wouldn't have gotten made in the first place.
So, by that logic, anyone who's ever had a producer credit on a broadcast TV show "obviously know what they're doing." Are they all then immune from criticism? Can we not draw meaningful distinctions between the competence of the creative professionals doing one show versus another?

I mean, they're competent enough to actually create a professional quality television series with realistic looking sets and respectable acting and broadcast their product on a digital streaming service, which is more than could be said for any of us.
So? Who gives a damn? That is literally true by definition for every show on the air. How does that necessarily make their end product worth watching, much less artistically coherent, the criteria Longinus was discussing? Why are you setting the bar so ridiculously low?

Well, other than the fact that Abrams explicit said as much in 2009:
"I wanted to go back to the beginning and start afresh," he recalls... "I wanted to take the spirit of what was created 43 years ago and use it to make it relevant for today, but the key was that we wanted to make it ours and not feel constrained by too many rules that were almost half a century old," he says. "The spirit of what came before had to fuel the movie and yet the specifics of the film needed to be ours."
Funny, that sure sounds to me like it supports my point, not yours. He gave lip service to the original while very clearly stating that his goal was to make something new and different.

... which YOUR Star Trek television series totally is, yes?
I don't get what you're trying to be sarcastic about here. "My" Star Trek television series is Star Trek. You know, the original series, on the air for three seasons, the thing from which every other Trek product is a derivative? So yeah, by definition, I'd say it's faithful to itself.

This is an absurd standard. I don't need to be a professional chef to tell that McDonald's cheeseburgers are pretty crappy food.
And yet that statement implies that you are at least capable of cooking a cheeseburger that is better than McDonalds'.
Umm, what? No it doesn't, not in the slightest. You can be personally incapable of boiling water, and yet still have a discerning enough palate to tell that McDonald's cheeseburgers barely aspire to mediocrity on their best day.

I don't believe, for example, that John Eaves is NEARLY as good a designer as Andrew Probert... But I don't get to call John Eaves a crappy artist; I could practice for a year and a half and not produce anything comparable to his very worst designs.
I'm seriously baffled by what you seem to be trying to say here. Following your examples to their logical conclusion, you're apparently out to discredit and undermine the very concept of criticism as a profession (much less as a pastime). Film criticism, and TV criticism, and literary criticism, and art criticism, and food criticism, and presumably every other kind. Or at least, in your quixotic worldview, only people who make a thing are qualified to have an opinion about it?...

You mean the rambling “critique” of the Abrams Trek full of pompous postmodern clichés written by a grad student trying oh so hard to show she’s smarter than everyone else?
Speaking as someone who's read a good bit of postmodern criticism (and who doesn't care for most of it), honestly, there's nothing at all postmodern about Horakova's critique of the Abrams films. You're misusing the word.

Beyond that, you also seem to have a bit of an anti-intellectual streak showing. Why such disdain for grad students?

The one that apparently failed to understand that the Kirk presented in those films had a completely separate life path to the one against whom he’s being compared (thus offering an insightful, yet still entertaining, look into the effect of environment on shaping a person’s personality and behaviour)? The one where the essayist clearly misunderstood that Pine-Kirk is MEANT to act DIFFERENTLY from Shatner-Kirk in order to explore a classic “what if?” scenario for which sci-fi is especially suited? That piece?

Yeah. I read it. She’s still full of shit.
Apparently you skipped footnote 18, then, where she writes, "I get that the altered timeline has produced a different Kirk. What I’m interested in is the ways he’s different and what projects these changes serve."

I also find it interesting that just a few posts apart in the same thread, I can find myself at odds both with someone who insists the Abrams films are fine because they're faithful to the spirit of the original, and with someone who insists the Abrams films are fine because they're trying to do something completely different from the original. FWIW, I think you've got the clearer perception of Abrams' intent here. It's just that unlike you (but like Horakova), I don't find those changes either insightful or entertaining.
 
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They are not kitbashed. The necells need not match just because trek has always reused them.

The body and design elements as well as the styling match the other ships. They fit togather.

All the other nacelles have the exact same element. The domed bussard collectors.

They all have that in common. The Shenzhou doesn’t have that. The Connie does.

Also I didn’t say anything about kitbashing
 
"
The problem with all of this is that it assumes that there's got to be a "look" to ships of the same period. In fact, there's no reason why UFP ships can't be just big blocks with engines strapped on them, but the Federation obviously goes for the elegant designs, so it's in a way a statement; an expression and projection of its culture and power. And since design is the thing they're going for as well as function, there's really no reason why all ships should be kitbashes of one another or at least look like they're cast from the same mold. I see no reason why the Shenzhou, Kelvin, Discovery and Constitution can't be from more-or-less the same time period.

Its not "elegant" its NX style, which is dated by DSC. Heck most the DSC have NX styling, but they look newer than the Connie, mostly due to the connie having a jarring mish mash of styling. It Looks kitbashed. This is why the connie stands out s the oddball, no other ship looks like a kitbash of new and old.


Again, that's speculation. You're assuming that you can tell what a 23rd century ship "should" look like.

On any show, sci-fi or not, things designed to fit within a set time frame look newer or older. The issue is, the Connie looks like an old ship next to the rest as they kept a very dated staying, but then tried to both show and hide it. Which makes it look older than the other ships as it simply is not designed the same way. Kinda like a restro mod of the wrong decade.

I wouldn't know, since I don't have a degree in 23rd century starship design. And neither do you.

We have infact seen 9 of them. * of them look like they fit, the 9th looks like it does not really fit but is kinda halfway tying to fit

Do you really think that something like the Galaxy class would be impossible to design in Kirk's time? Hell, it was possible to design it in 1987!

Not sure what you mean here. They could have built something like the Galaxy, it would not have had the power, but they could have built what amounts to a failed experiment


So all nacelles from ships in the same era must be the same? Why would you think that?

Its the long use of Kitbashing man. Folks think all ships of a set era should ALL use the same set of nacells. This does not make a lick of sense, but its this fan thing where they tried really hard to make everything fit
 
All the other nacelles have the exact same element. The domed bussard collectors.

They all have that in common. The Shenzhou doesn’t have that. The Connie does

And its an much older design we have been told as well. Why should they all share the same features?
 
Once more, so? Do the other races ships all have them?
The shenzhou not having it makes her inconsistant with nearly every single Starfleet ship we’ve seen so far, before and after her launch (outside of the TOS movies and some designs post-tng)
 
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The shenzhou not having it makes her inconsistant with nearly every single Starfleet ship we’ve seen so far, before and after her launch (outside of the TOS movies and some designs post-tng)

Not really, we have been told she is an old ship. We also know her transporters are not standard any more either. This is not really inconsistent as she has been marked as old. It would stand out if she was superposed to be the same age as the others.
 
Not really, we have been told she is an old ship. We also know her transporters are not standard any more either. This is not really inconsistent as she has been marked as old. It would stand out if she was superposed to be the same age as the others.

The tech isn’t inconsistent it’s the design of the nacelles
 
The tech isn’t inconsistent it’s the design of the nacelles

Which is not an issue as long as none of those ships are the same age. Heck, if they showed one other ship with that style, it would work as well. It simply does not stand out as an issue as long as its an old design.
 
Which is not an issue as long as none of those ships are the same age. Heck, if they showed one other ship with that style, it would work as well. It simply does not stand out as an issue as long as its an old design.

It breaks the design lineage. Why do they go from domes, to no domes and then back to domes again?
 
Starship design lineage is about as consistent and easy-to-understand as Starfleet uniform lineage.
Wait...there's a lineage that makes sense?

Man, and I hated the TNG uniforms for years. This changes everything ;)

Then again my argument could to applied to the TOS movie designs
Pretty much most of the arguments against DISCO and even Abrams Trek could be applied to the TOS films.
 
It breaks the design lineage. Why do they go from domes, to no domes and then back to domes again?

Stuff like that happens in real life with machines. Ditch this old thing for a new design, new design has a flaw, how do we fix it? Use the old version, but its improved! I think with trek we have had kitbashes so long, have seen so few ships, we get this idea of linage in our heads, I do as well.

But really, why should all ship classes have the same tech? The same design? the Federation has hundreds of races, each has its own way of doing things. Maybe race Y thinks they work best without domes and pushed though this new design, but then other folks on the design teams decided though fact or politics that the old way most races do it works best.

Honestly, I really wish they would bring neat things like this up on the show. Maybe point out the whys off handed as fans will notice the differences in designs. Gods we love our ship porn.
 
The TNG+ era had wildly varying designs as well, the Steamrunner, Norway, and Akira were all pretty different despite being built around the same time.

They all had similar bussard collectors though
 
Wait...there's a lineage that makes sense?

Man, and I hated the TNG uniforms for years. This changes everything ;)


Pretty much most of the arguments against DISCO and even Abrams Trek could be applied to the TOS films.


I mostly hated it was more or less a Class A, they wore fore EVERYTHINg! Gotta Helm the ship, class A's, Climb though the bowels of the ship, Class A's! Gonna dig a ditch, go hand to hand combat, take out the trash, take apart the ships drive? Class A's with no freaking pockets is ll you need!
 
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