• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

I would not call it timeless, but she is classic. IMO, that design did set the tone for hull textures. IMO she is a lovely ship, but she does have her own dated features, but she does not have the Space age styling of the TOS ship. She is really the base for most other ship designs.
And has heavily influenced EVERY other Trek design of the franchise in ways even the original ship did not. The aztec pattern on the hull, the circular docking ports, the angled clamshell shuttlebay, the overall profile of the ship and the glowing deflector dish, have all been imitated to a greater or lesser degree in every other iteration of the Enterprise or other non-hero ships. The Kelvinverse Enteprise borrowed heavily from that design as well, imitating elements like the hull plating, the phaser banks, the torpedo launchers, even the shape and position of the windows on the saucer and the bridge.

So it should be no surprise that the Disco version of the Enterprise looks like someone took the TMP refit as a starting point and then extrapolated backwards into what that ship was redesigned FROM. What you would basically get in that case is the the original "Phase-II" Enterprise design, which -- combined with the Discovery-series style elements -- is exactly what we got.

This. It doesn't feel as dated as other atomic age stylings.
2001: a Space Odyssey was the watershed moment in Scifi set and spaceship design, so much so that everything that came AFTER it had a much higher bar to jump. To say that Enterprise looks more "modern" than most atomic-age ships isn't much of an endorsement; "Frankenstein" may be more closer to modern science fiction than any of its predecessors, but in a literary world that pre-dates H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, that isn't really saying much.

By way of comparison:

trektv7s.jpg


discg.jpg


17o6xjmtror54jpg.jpg


We're not talking about fictional Starship Design progression in the Federation, because Starfleet is not a real organization and no real progression actually takes place. What we're talking about is the progression of designs of starship models and technical designs, decade after decade. In that sense, the TMP design is literally what happens to the Enterprise after the end of the "atomic rocket" era of science fiction, defined by ships like the Discovery 1, the Nostromo, the Star Wars galaxy and the Battlestar Galactica. The TMP ship and the Enterprise-D are as much as part of setting those design conventions as they are influenced BY them.

More importantly: style cannot be undone. You can only get away with retrofuturism in an environment where you're really going all out for it (i.e. The Fifth element, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow) but that's a stylization with far different implications and is harder to pull off realistically (and some people don't even try for realism, see "Mars Attacks!" or "Destroy All Humans!")

I don't mean to gloat (at least not entirely) but isn't this entire argument sort of moot anyway? All the people who said the TOS design was the only one that could possibly have worked have been proven wrong. The producers used the same basic shape and updated the design textures and structural elements, which is exactly what most of us thought they were going to do. They were NEVER going to use the unaltered TOS design, because they would have been stupid.

Precisely. Up until now, Trek shows have never had a problem acknowledging that previous designs for ships, uniforms, etc. varied from era to era (however much some of those things may, as a matter of opinion, have evoked certain 20th-21st century styles of design), but stayed consistent with themselves. The TOS Enterprise always looked like it had always looked, no matter what show was depicting it, and the same was true for other "flashback" elements. This makes sense.

It's only in DSC that we're suddenly confronted with the impulse to change what has gone before, as if it were somehow anathema to acknowledge that it went before...
And this is the problem in a nutshell: you're thinking of Star Trek as a self-contained property that evolves along its own conventions and its own continuity with no outside influences from the rest of science fiction as a whole. This is not a realistic thing to expect. Star Trek is part of the broader context of science fiction as a genre and the people working on the show have worked on DOZENS of other properties over the years. There is no skill set particular to "designing Star Trek ships" nor is there any specific art style particular to Star Trek itself. So anyone who is brought into a Star Trek production will also bring the lessons and experiences of OTHER scifi productions into the context of Star Trek and will come up with designs consistent with this.

In other words, they have a different definition of "What has gone before" than you do. These artists are looking at the whole of science fiction as influences; that includes Star Wars, Babylon 5, Stargate, Interstellar; that includes military aircraft that hadn't even been conceived of yet in the 1960s and modern fighter planes like the F-22 and the F-35 that had barely been flight tested when TNG went off the air. That even includes the last 40 years of Star Trek designs, many of which were EXCELLENT, and should certainly influence future Star Trek productions even if those productions are themselves PREQUELS from an internal chronological standpoint.

You're thinking in terms of Star Trek's fictional history as if it were a self-contained thing. But there's ALOT more to science fiction than just Star Trek, and there's ALOT more to "what has gone before" than the classic Enterprise. Which, I suspect, is why this debate continues to rage on, stoked by people who have almost no background in graphic design and nothing to show for a career in art design. It's easy to make assumptions about how something SHOULD have been done if you have no real idea how it WAS done in the first place.
 
Last edited:
John Eaves was actually looking at military aircraft from the 60s-50s for inspiration when designing the other starfleet ships.
 
They fixed that on Columbia, its dish actually look like it is designed to go into that ship.

In fact the Europa in Discovery has what is essentially the Columbia's dish, just minus the antennae (although the concept art does have antennae, the CG model doesn't for some reason).
 
I don't mean to gloat (at least not entirely) but isn't this entire argument sort of moot anyway? All the people who said the TOS design was the only one that could possibly have worked have been proven wrong.

Wrong. This one doesn't work.

(BTW, I'm not among those who think "only the TOS ship would have worked." This one, however, "proves" nothing because it's such a clumsy kludge.)
 
Wrong. This one doesn't work.
It works just fine with the Discovery aesthetic. Everyone who saw it recognized it by its shape and the overall design is pretty similar. The majority of the people I watched it with found the "new take" on the classic design fascinating and keep wondering when there's going to be a model kit or something so they can build/paint their own. And most importantly, outside of the VERY insular and self-referential world of Hardcore Fandom, there's been little or no public reaction to the Enterprise not looking exactly the same way it did in "The Cage."

So it's not a question of whether or not it "works" or not, because it clearly does, and is consistent with the visual style of the show in which it appears. You not liking it is totally different subject, but unless you have a degree in Starship Engineering, your lack of approval means little.
 
Whether it is iconic, retro futuristic or dated is not the point, in IM$O. The discoprise does not fit in with other ships of the era, with it's mishgash of present, past, future design features. It could have remained essentially the same short of those looking to "make a name for themselves".
 
For those who claim FC made a significant timeline change, the Defiant in IAMD looks the same, and the 1701 in display case post FC look unchanged.
 
Whether it is iconic, retro futuristic or dated is not the point, in IM$O. The discoprise does not fit in with other ships of the era, with it's mishgash of present, past, future design features. It could have remained essentially the same short of those looking to "make a name for themselves".
Judging from the designs of the other ships, I'd say they really wanted the Enterprise to stand out when it shows up. Like the ships introduced in First Contact, they have very few similarities to the Enterprise (or Discovery for that matter) besides hull texture to prevent audience confusion.
 
Whether it is iconic, retro futuristic or dated is not the point, in IM$O. The discoprise does not fit in with other ships of the era, with it's mishgash of present, past, future design features.
It has the exact same design features as all the other ships in the Discoverse. The only thing distinct about it is the fact that its deflector dish and warp nacelles are ROUND. The entire rest of the design has the same textures and style as the Buran, the Europa, the Gagarin et al.

It's entirely possible this Enterprise was actually one of John Eaves designs (it kind of looks like one of his) and he just kept quiet about it to avoid spoilers.

Judging from the designs of the other ships, I'd say they really wanted the Enterprise to stand out when it shows up. Like the ships introduced in First Contact, they have very few similarities to the Enterprise (or Discovery for that matter) besides hull texture to prevent audience confusion.
The thing that makes it stand out is the fact that it's called "Enterprise" and is shaped like it. Eaves even mentions in interviews that the producers wanted the other ships in the series to have flatter profiles overall, which, to me, implies that they wanted Discovery and to a greater extent Enterprise to be notable for being taller.

Apart from that very basic concept (vertical dimension) there aren't alot of obvious differences. There may be plenty of more subtle differences, but we haven't seen nearly enough of the Discoprize to tell.
 
Whether it is iconic, retro futuristic or dated is not the point, in IM$O. The discoprise does not fit in with other ships of the era, with it's mishgash of present, past, future design features. It could have remained essentially the same short of those looking to "make a name for themselves".

It could have, buy why should it have? I thought the mishmash of present, past, and future design features worked just fine. (You have to do something with the blue glow issue, for instance.)
 
That fin is in the wrong spot and too thin to be part of a nacelle strut. I think it’s meant to be a fin like you see on the top of the shenzhou

That's been my impression from the start. Apparently the MU puts pointless greeblies on their ships & refits too.
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top