Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[eltel99uk]

The worst part has nothing to do with the cloak or the time frame. It's that a politically divided foe - basically 24 different houses acting independently - could defeat the Federation. It means that one 24th of the total Klingon fleet is enough to win essentially any engagement with the Federation. It also means the Klingons are not coordinating anything. Not strategy, not tactics, not even logistics. Any admiral worth their salt should be able to use this against the Klingons - to win the war through the Federation's superior coordination.

Yeah I can buy a blitzkrieg doing immense damage over mere months, but, as you say, how they're written the Klingon attackers really doesn't square with this. Though when you read the autobiography of Albert Speer it provides fascinating insights into just how internally fractured and generally a complete mess the Nazis were - Hitler encouraged competition among his minions and the "all powerful Nazi war machine" was NOT some well-organised slick machine. Indeed it's rather sobering to think what the Germans might have done if they'd not had such extreme politicking and competition among competing factions.
I still think your main point stands, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here with an example from real world history that turns on its head what a lot of people think they know about how the Nazi war machine worked. It often worked despite a lot of ridiculous inefficiencies, not because it was ultra-efficient and how we tend to think of modern German production processes!

 

[Pindar]

The worst part has nothing to do with the cloak or the time frame. It's that a politically divided foe - basically 24 different houses acting independently - could defeat the Federation. It means that one 24th of the total Klingon fleet is enough to win essentially any engagement with the Federation. It also means the Klingons are not coordinating anything. Not strategy, not tactics, not even logistics. Any admiral worth their salt should be able to use this against the Klingons - to win the war through the Federation's superior coordination.

None of it's real of course but in the Battletech Universe an invading force of seperate warrior clans carved up what was essentially a fractured UFP in short order.

I don't see why a warrior culture couldn't decimate the Federation whilst competing with each other to see who could claim the most territory.

The UFP is clearly not up to fighting a war, whilst the Klingons live for it.

 

[eschaton]

Lincoln kept saying that for 4 years.

Are you saying there was zero coordination of the war effort by the CSA?

Also, it's not the best analogy, because most of the Civil War was fought within the South, with just a few engagements (like Gettysburg) outside of it. If we want to use this analogy, the Federation needs to be trying to invade and occupy the Klingon Empire, with the 24 houses waging separate resistance campaigns.

 

[cooleddie74]

And in canon there's been no major war since the founding of the Federation. The Xindi crisis ended without a full-scale war between humans and those species and the Earth-Romulan War was over by the time delegates met in San Francisco to sign the Federation Charter. Unless there's an as-yet-unrevealed war that happened between 2161 and 2256 such as the Federation's tense relations with the Sheliak having blown up into an armed conflict before the Treaty of Armens then this may be the first time Starfleet has faced a real battlefield against a worthy and dangerous adversary since the time of Jonathan Archer.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Are you saying there was zero coordination of the war effort by the CSA?

Also, it's not the best analogy, because most of the Civil War was fought within the South, with just a few engagements (like Gettysburg) outside of it. If we want to use this analogy, the Federation needs to be trying to invade and occupy the Klingon Empire, with the 24 houses waging separate resistance campaigns.

The Union had more troops, industry, ships, rail, basically everything. It shouldn't have taken as long as it did and Lincoln knew it, but you need leaders who know what to do with all the stuff and are willing and able to do it. Took years of clearing out desk generals, the Federation is in the same process.

 

[Nyotarules]

Look it’s beleivable if you come at it with the fact that only 100 years prior humans were just warp 5 capable and had literally no clue what was out there, whereas Klingons had been out in the quadrant for a much longer time. Better ships, better weapons, cloaking tech, the list goes on and on. ISIS are essentially operating the same way and they are wreaking havoc across the Middle East. Maybe by the time of next gen the war would go on 20 years

The Klingons are not fighting the human race, they are fighting the Federation.

 

[eltel99uk]

OK just a thought here - are we all falling for the how-Kirk-beat-Khan in TWOK trick? Namely thinking too much in two-dimensions? Three-dimensional warfare does, of course exist presently, with things like air superiority, but that's far short of taking variable amounts of territory across three axes in a galaxy....just a thought.....

 

[Silversmok3]

Yeah I can buy a blitzkrieg doing immense damage over mere months, but, as you say, how they're written the Klingon attackers really doesn't square with this. Though when you read the autobiography of Albert Speer it provides fascinating insights into just how internally fractured and generally a complete mess the Nazis were - Hitler encouraged competition among his minions and the "all powerful Nazi war machine" was NOT some well-organised slick machine. Indeed it's rather sobering to think what the Germans might have done if they'd not had such extreme politicking and competition among competing factions.
I still think your main point stands, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here with an example from real world history that turns on its head what a lot of people think they know about how the Nazi war machine worked. It often worked despite a lot of ridiculous inefficiencies, not because it was ultra-efficient and how we tend to think of modern German production processes!

Candidly speaking,every large military force has competitiveness and inefficiencies.

But the Nazis had a direct chain of command that ended with Hitler at the top. He gave the orders,and the German military obeyed. There is no single “Hitler” at the top of the Klingon war machine in Discovery; It’s more like 24 Hitlers with their own equipment,logistics,and chain of command.

It doesn’t seem like a big deal at first; but an army like that can’t function against a unified force.If you’ve got 24 separate armies fighting however they like ,you’ll have friendly fire and accidents .

Take those “suicide attacks”. If clan A sends a Warbird on a suicide flight against a Starfleet outpost being attacked the old fashioned way by clan B- who aborts and who finishes the attack? Who gives the order? Does Clan A detonate anyway and kill their own people in the process?

 

[Silversmok3]

OK just a thought here - are we all falling for the how-Kirk-beat-Khan in TWOK trick? Namely thinking too much in two-dimensions? Three-dimensional warfare does, of course exist presently, with things like air superiority, but that's far short of taking variable amounts of territory across three axes in a galaxy....just a thought.....

This was a personal sticking point for me in the first episode. Starships in 3 dimensional space lined up like football players? Not .

Even standard naval fleets don’t do that. They sail in tactical formations; the destroyers sail on one side,the picket ships on another,the subs on the outside,aircraft carrier in the middle,etc.

The 3D argument really blows a hole with the Starfleet losing in 9 months. When Klingon battle lines stretch across parsecs of space and 24 separate logistics chains have to supply the invasion force, all Starfleet would need do is blast their resupply ships to dust and let the Klingons starve.

 

[CJCade]

The worst part has nothing to do with the cloak or the time frame. It's that a politically divided foe - basically 24 different houses acting independently - could defeat the Federation. It means that one 24th of the total Klingon fleet is enough to win essentially any engagement with the Federation. It also means the Klingons are not coordinating anything. Not strategy, not tactics, not even logistics. Any admiral worth their salt should be able to use this against the Klingons - to win the war through the Federation's superior coordination.

In an organized war with unified forces, there are tactics that can be anticipated. In a war against numerous factions that have no organization and no rhyme or reason to the attacks they make, there is no amount of coordination that can swiftly and decisively neutralize them. With each attack the Klingons made and loss the Federation took, the harder it became to adequately spread their defense in anticipation of further seemingly illogical attacks.

And in canon there's been no major war since the founding of the Federation. The Xindi crisis ended without a full-scale war between humans and those species and the Earth-Romulan War was over by the time delegates met in San Francisco to sign the Federation Charter. Unless there's an as-yet-unrevealed war that happened between 2161 and 2256 such as the Federation's tense relations with the Sheliak having blown up into an armed conflict before the Treaty of Armens then this may be the first time Starfleet has faced a real battlefield against a worthy and dangerous adversary since the time of Jonathan Archer.

I've thought the same thing every time I've seen this topic come up.

 

[eschaton]

The Union had more troops, industry, ships, rail, basically everything. It shouldn't have taken as long as it did and Lincoln knew it, but you need leaders who know what to do with all the stuff and are willing and able to do it. Took years of clearing out desk generals, the Federation is in the same process.

Yes, the Union lost a lot of early battles it should have won. But it was mostly fighting an offensive war, while the CSA was fighting a defensive one. And the CSA did actually coordinate - it's not like every state had independent supply trains and tried to win battles without the help of other CSA forces.

 

[eschaton]

In an organized war with unified forces, there are tactics that can be anticipated. In a war against numerous factions that have no organization and no rhyme or reason to the attacks they make, there is no amount of coordination that can swiftly and decisively neutralize them. With each attack the Klingons made and loss the Federation took, the harder it became to adequately spread their defense in anticipation of further seemingly illogical attacks.

So you're basically analogizing the Klingons to say the different Iraqi factions during the U.S. occupation. Once again, fighting a defensive war on home turf is different than fighting an offensive war.

I'm not a huge military historian, but as I said, I need to go all the way back to the barbarian invasions of Rome to come up with a scenario where a politically divided force successfully won military engagements against a unified enemy. And late-period Rome was rotting from the inside.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Yes, the Union lost a lot of early battles it should have won. But it was mostly fighting an offensive war, while the CSA was fighting a defensive one. And the CSA did actually coordinate - it's not like every state had independent supply trains and tried to win battles without the help of other CSA forces.

Yet the Federation which as Eddie pointed out above hasn't faced any major wars in recent history should be magically better at war than the Klingons who make this a life's work?

 

[eschaton]

Yet the Federation which as Eddie pointed out above hasn't faced any major wars in recent history should be magically better at war than the Klingons who make this a life's work?

Better? No. But presuming the sides are technologically matched (aside from cloak) and have roughly the same projection capabilities, the advantage of political unity should more than make up for the Klingon Empire being essentially 24 gangs of pirates rather than an empire.

 

[Silversmok3]

In an organized war with unified forces, there are tactics that can be anticipated. In a war against numerous factions that have no organization and no rhyme or reason to the attacks they make, there is no amount of coordination that can swiftly and decisively neutralize them. With each attack the Klingons made and loss the Federation took, the harder it became to adequately spread their defense in anticipation of further seemingly illogical attacks.

You don’t have to neutralize ANY of the factions separately. That’s what the other factions are for ;-).

A smart enemy doesn’t fight 24 separate houses. A smart enemy gets those 24 houses to turn the disrupters on each other,and Klingons being Klingons that is not a hard task.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Better? No. But presuming the sides are technologically matched (aside from cloak) and have roughly the same projection capabilities, the advantage of political unity should more than make up for the Klingon Empire being essentially 24 gangs of pirates rather than an empire.

No, not really.

 

[Silversmok3]

No, not really.

Then why did TKuvma berate the clan heads at the start of the series? There’s a reason he wanted those houses to join forces before fighting Starfleet.

Has anyone wondered what would happen to the Klingon military if the House leaders died? Say 12 of the 24 House bosses get whacked by Starfleet decapitation attacks- I imagine if it’s anything like human tribal politics ,those 12 headless houses won’t be combat effective on account of internal civil wars over who gets to be the next boss.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Then why did TKuvma berate the clan heads at the start of the series? There’s a reason he wanted those houses to join forces before fighting Starfleet.

Get as many troops as you can? Incredible! What military ever tried that before fighting a war?

 

[Longinus]

Has anyone wondered what would happen to the Klingon military if the House leaders died? Say 12 of the 24 House bosses get whacked by Starfleet decapitation attacks- I imagine if it’s anything like human tribal politics ,those 12 headless houses won’t be combat effective on account of internal civil wars over who gets to be the next boss.

By Discovery logic the Klingons would become even more powerful.

 

[CJCade]

So you're basically analogizing the Klingons to say the different Iraqi factions during the U.S. occupation. Once again, fighting a defensive war on home turf is different than fighting an offensive war.

I'm not a huge military historian, but as I said, I need to go all the way back to the barbarian invasions of Rome to come up with a scenario where a politically divided force successfully won military engagements against a unified enemy. And late-period Rome was rotting from the inside.

You don’t have to neutralize ANY of the factions separately. That’s what the other factions are for ;-).

A smart enemy doesn’t fight 24 separate houses. A smart enemy gets those 24 houses to turn the disrupters on each other,and Klingons being Klingons that is not a hard task.

The thing is, as far as was shown and hinted at, the Federation wasn't fighting an offensive war. Except for what the Discovery did before disappearing to the MU, it was purely defensive. And defending against 24 separate factions that attack at random, at random targets, is a struggle to say the least, especially with mounting losses. And even though the Klingons had no single leader, they did have a single enemy that they were attacking, so in that they were joined, even if not organized.

I dislike the 9 month time frame as well, but there is a modicum of logic in the premise, even if it is stretched to the limit.