Exactly. Likely and logical assumptions are not facts.
JAMES CAWLEY SPEAKS!
- Thread starter HerbFlynn
- Start date
No, the simplest path (and the one CBS hopes you would take is:
"Produce your own original concept film, and stop doing unlicensed productions using the Star Trek IP. If you simply must do something Star Trek related - here's a set of guidelines you can follow and we most likely won't sue you...but no hard legal promises here - we judge each instance on a case by case basis and are not implying these guidelines grant you a license; nor top we relinquish ANY right to peruse whatever legal remedy we might choose. BTW we're also not saying we will absolutely sue you if you don't follow every guideline either; but chances are better we won;t sue if you do."
TLDR - The guidelines aren't an implied license or contract nor do they protect you if CBS in the end decides to take legal action for whatever reason. They'd really rather NO ONE create an unlicensed Star Trek based production, but for now IF you do such a production and follow every guideline, you are most likely safe from legal action by CBS.
And if they ask you to stop, you just say ok, and no harm done. The only reason Axanar blew up the way it did is because they *argued* about it. When you get the C&D, just listen! I don't see anyone else doing that (arguing in court against the IP holders), so I don't see what the big fuss / risk is about either way.
Are you speaking for CBS and Paramount? Because when they speak for themselves, they speak to the contrary [http://www.startrek.com/fan-films]:
CBS and Paramount Pictures are big believers in reasonable fan fiction and fan creativity, and, in particular, want amateur fan filmmakers to showcase their passion for Star Trek. Therefore, CBS and Paramount Pictures will not object to, or take legal action against, Star Trek fan productions that are non-professional and amateur and meet the following guidelines.
If their actual position was as you say, then there would be no reason for them to put out a set of guidelines designed to support a limited niche for fan films at all. So, I take them at their word: they "want amateur fan filmmakers to showcase their passion for Star Trek" in a "reasonable" way in the production of Star Trek fan films.
I'm going by what John Van Critters was saying when interviewed about the Guidelines. They'd really rather you not; but they also realize that this won't happen at this won't happen.
Can you provide a quote of what you are referring to?
There, fixed that for ya. How could you call something the simplest path and then spend a large paragraph describing it?
Producing a new sci-fi franchise is not even remotely simple, and I should know because I'm working on one right now. If you want simple, give up on creating stuff and just watch Netflix.
You're preaching to the choir on that one.
I found a copy online of a star trek license agreement and it would make it very difficult to do a fan film with that in effect.
As I expected, it starts by basically saying you have the rights to make these specific things. CBS retains all other rights to the program. CBS must approve in writing anything before it can be made and failure to do so is grounds for termination of the contract.
There is also a clause where the licensee must admit that all the property and trademarks below to CBS wether registered or not and all artwork, etc made that relate to the property are the property of CBS.
The kicker is a clause in the copyright section that requires the licensee to notifiy CBS if they find out about anybody violatating their copyright or trademarks. Since a fan film by definition is a copyright violation he'd have to turn himself in. .
So yeah in this license agreement I found there is a whole paragraph with 5 subsections on goodwill, patents, copyright, and trademark and all looks very boilerplate. I'm sure it is in Cawley's as well. It is only good business sense. You are letting somebody make some money off your property. You are going to control what they can and cannot do with it and doing something not allowed in the agreement is a good way to get the agreement cancelled.
And cawley can't say anything because unless required by law, licensees are not allowed to disclose the terms of the license (that is also in the one I found).
Here is the link if anybody wants to take a look. Section 8 is the copyright one. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/868756/000105291808000381/ex1017.htm
As I expected, it starts by basically saying you have the rights to make these specific things. CBS retains all other rights to the program. CBS must approve in writing anything before it can be made and failure to do so is grounds for termination of the contract.
There is also a clause where the licensee must admit that all the property and trademarks below to CBS wether registered or not and all artwork, etc made that relate to the property are the property of CBS.
The kicker is a clause in the copyright section that requires the licensee to notifiy CBS if they find out about anybody violatating their copyright or trademarks. Since a fan film by definition is a copyright violation he'd have to turn himself in. .
So yeah in this license agreement I found there is a whole paragraph with 5 subsections on goodwill, patents, copyright, and trademark and all looks very boilerplate. I'm sure it is in Cawley's as well. It is only good business sense. You are letting somebody make some money off your property. You are going to control what they can and cannot do with it and doing something not allowed in the agreement is a good way to get the agreement cancelled.
And cawley can't say anything because unless required by law, licensees are not allowed to disclose the terms of the license (that is also in the one I found).
Here is the link if anybody wants to take a look. Section 8 is the copyright one. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/868756/000105291808000381/ex1017.htm
Critters. 
So, Cawley and anybody else could by just talking to folks at CBS and have an agreement. If this was the case then I think the guidelines should be ignored and any fanfilmmaker should just go to CBS and work out agreements on a fantrek film.
The fanfilm base are no threat to CBS, and these things only boost interest in their property. Vic shouldn't be special, everyone should have the freedom to make a fantrek as long as they want to make them and it's in good taste... like what Vic and everyone else has done. It's crazy for CBS to do this and I think fans should roll the dice-- they need the fans and these project participation.
15 mins is ridiculous, not saying it can't be done, but this is not a contest for short films. People have the right to invest in anything they want in a fanfilm as long as it doesn't tarnish the property and no one has done this. Vic gets a pass then the hell with CBS, and the hell with their guidelines.
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it.
But I'd advise anyone who thinks it's a good idea to ignore CBS' guidelines, especially about crowdfunding, seek legal counsel first.
And maybe read the comments from an actual CBS official.
Well, the entire thing was basically done to stop Axanar from continuing to steal money from Star Trek fans. CBS had to act like it was for everyone but in reality it was for one person IMO.
Or actually speak to them and ask.
I disagree. I think it's pretty clear that they were targeting an entire category of professionally-made, crowdfunded productions, including STC and Renegades. They weren't just intended for Axanar.
Star Trek doesn't need fan films. Fan films cater to those people who are already fans of the property. They don;t bring in new eyeballs. They are not designed to. They are by fans and for fans. A niche of a niche.
As for ignoring guidelines, that would be a bad idea. Vic got away with it becasue he simply finished what he was doing with teh money he had raised and closed down. He original had plans to raise more money for another 2 episodes but cancelled those because going and asking for NEW money for films that would be against the guidelines is likely the point where CBS would stop looking the other way.
I don't think they were targeting STC but renegades I do thing. Production budgets were going up and up and many productions trying to see how many ex-trek actors, producers, etc they could get on their production and that was starting to lead to a point where some productions could be confused with official trek productions. Something had to be done.
Now, Alec beign a complete jerk and just eradicating any and all lines that used to be there likely casued the guidelines to be tougher then they would have been otherwise and definitely forced their hand. .
And just why would it be a bad idea for someone to go to the intellectual property owner and ask, "here's what we'd like to do, and would that be okay?" and get either a yay or a nay?
Only hardcore fans watch fanfilms. They don't attract new fans to the franchise, and worse, some of those viewers bitch that the fanfilms are better than the official product, so just how is this adding value?
It ain't.
*sigh* Remember that CBS said the Guidelines were not applied retroactively, and that films in production weren't expected to abide by them. Continues had already done their crowdfunding, so that's likely why they were allowed to finish up their run, albeit somewhat truncated.
Just stop with the disingenuous "15 minutes' thing. The Guidelines say you can effectively make a 30 minute film by doing two linked 15 minutes films (just consider the split where the "commercial break" would be). "The Savage Empire" is ~35 minutes long and even there it's somewhat padded, so, yes, you can make a fine film within those time strictures.
I'm not sure I see much of a difference between the two. Both used Star Trek alumni, crew with professional experience, massive crowdfunding, et cetera. I think Renegades was slightly more egregious, but the only significant difference was the 501(c)(3) status of Trek Continues. Besides, Renegades was sufficiently unique that it could go the "file off the serial numbers" route, whereas that was impossible for STC, so even if Renegades was the target, STC was the only one of the two that suffered.
That's a rather one-dimensional way of looking at it. The more loyal your fans, the more revenue you can derive from their loyalty. Do casual viewers buy props and costumes? Do casual viewers by the series on DVD and Blu-ray? Do casual viewers play Star Trek-related games like Star Trek Online? What about all those Christmas ornaments?
First of all, unless you're just going to arbitrarily cut a film at the 15 minute mark, breaking up a film into two equal sections takes careful planning and writing. Also, if you have separate credits per video, then you basically lost the time it takes to show the second set of credits. This is a totally unnecessary restriction. Just letting people do full 30 minute films would have made a lot more sense, not to mention the fact that every minute of video you have reduces your per minute funding anyways, so you already have a built-in disincentive for long videos.
Secondly, 30 minutes isn't really that long, especially if you can't do serialized content. Just look at the cartoon Justice League. In both seasons of that show, how many one-episode stories were there? ONE. And there were 52 episodes.
There's a big difference between being able to make a film and being able to make your film. Some people prefer the shorter format, and great content can be made for that format, but not everyone wants to tell that kind of story. It's the equivalent of short story writers telling novelists that they could just write short stories and it would be a lot faster and use less paper. The two formats are not equivalent, and the kinds of stories you'd tell in each are not the same. Besides, with regards to full-length and TV-length films, the genie is out of the bottle. People already know what is possible, and by artificially limiting length only serves to tell people who want to make similar long-form content that they're not welcome.
STC looks like it was made in the 60s and would never be confused with being a current star trek show.
Renegades could be confused with a current show especially with the number of actors playing their same roles.
That is the difference between the two.
I've seen fan films with credits nearly as long as the story. And arguably more interesting.
The thing that keeps getting overlooked is, CBS owns the property. Lock, stock, and barrel. They could easily have just said "no more" and been done with it. But they haven't.
Yet.
