• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

Rate the episode...


  • Total voters
    269
I mean, I don't know how hard it its to believe Terrans are the pieces of shit they are portrayed to be.
I totally get that they're evil. But the show portrays their evilness via puerile caricature. The Emperor just randomly killing bunch of people was more of the same.
 
Quick thought re: that sourpants review - I'm gonna guess that on top of knowing how to make a nice painkiller to limit the effects of the agonizer booths, Lorca's built up some kind of a tolerance to them by now. Good skill for a MU captain to have. Either that, or he's, erm, into it.
 
But how can they possibly ensure that? For all anyone knows, Tyler still remembers he's Voq and is prepared to "game the system" so he can fool everyone into believing he's "cured". He IS a spy, after all.

And L'Rell was Voq's handler, after all. If what you say about the "death howl" is true (I haven't actually seen the episode yet), then who's to say the howl wasn't fake and she isn't still active in perpetuating the deception?

How can they prove, with 100% certainty, that Voq is no longer Voq?

L'Rell's howl seemed genuine, but yeah it obviously could be faked, so I guess they would do some kind of intensive memory/medical scanning. Culber mentioned research/theory on how a mind overlay could work. Bring that researcher onto the case, figure it out.

Yes, buuuuuut...

I wouldn't say "blameless." I'd say "not culpable." I'm not sure they'll ever be able to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt what was Voq and what was Tyler. I hypothesize that Tyler's digitised personality could not have been entirely uninfluenced by Voq. Voq sort of filled in the spaces between Tyler (or Tyler filled in the spaces of Voq). So there's a bit of a confound here that I'm not sure Federation science will ever be able to fully suss out. But, I think it's safe to say, that whatever is left of Tyler is not culpable for the actions taken whilst Voq was, more or less, in charge. Similar to cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder. But, as in the case of DID, since assurance is an issue, there's usually consequences, though they may not be as severe. When someone has DID and one of their alters commits a crime, there's usually time spent in mandatory therapy at a State psychiatric facility. Involuntary incarceration, in other words.

Now, perhaps Federation science has advanced to the point where they can suss out the difference between personalities, but I suspect not. I point to Culber's clearly hypothetical scenario (which turned out to be correct) that he wasn't entirely sure of (until Tyler/Voq broke his neck, of course). If he wasn't certain whether or not what he was suspecting was possible, that would seem to indicate that Federation science is not advanced enough to suss out the differences a procedure like that would muddy.

But, this might be neither here nor there. If the writers want to keep Tyler around, fine. I like the character. I'm just trying to be realistic about the kind of Treknobabble explanation they would inevitably have to come up with to keep him on...

Yeah, as above. They clearly have some theory as how it could work out, so I bet they could technobable up some "miracle" solution that confirms the situation and that Tyler is just tyler and is blameless. Though he might still blame himself - a continuation of his whole tortured character. I hope they keep him around, i like the character and the actor - after not really liking him upon his introduction.
 
I know that I have said this more than a few times...but I think it bears some repeating (especially since the naysayers are back with a vengeance this week).

We really need to have some perspective on where this show is at and where it has come from in this stage of its lifecycle. It is 12 episodes into it's run. It was only given 15 episodes to tell an arc-driven story...which means not a ton of time to develop characters and sip tea. Then, there was a lot of turmoil on the production side of this show...particularly with the original creator / vision-setter and show runner leaving and others having to take over and execute that vision.

Taking TOS out of the equation, think about all the other Trek series and where they were at after 12 episodes. Hell, TNG, which seems to be the overwhelming popular favorite, was a very inconsistent mess. Even as a 12-year old young lad, TNG was boring and trite too often in the first half of that first season. It was drudgery. DS9, the "refined fan's favorite" hit the ball out of the frigging park with "The Emissary" and then was drudgery for nearly 2 full years. I didn't get back into it until "Way of the Warrior." VOY and ENT were equally bad early on in their runs. Heck, ENT took 2 full seasons to have anything even remotely resembling a good run of episodes.

I think we need to be patient. History tells us that things will only get better. This has been a pretty good season all things considered and especially given the history of the franchise and how long it typically takes these shows to get their legs and start being comfortable in their own skin.

Look at TNG's first 12 as an example:

1. Farpoint (mediocre...carried more on nostalgia than what it delivered) 6/10
2. Naked Now (derivative, not good) 4/10
3. Code of Honor (abysmal) 1/10
4. Last Outpost (ok, but became a silly joke by the end) 5/10
5. Where No One Has Gone... (very good) 8/10
6. Lonely Among Us (not good) 2/10
7. Justice (abysmal) 1/10
8. The Battle (ok, but a little silly and sloppy) 5/10
9. Hide & Q (ok, but pretty silly) 5/10
10. Haven (abysmal) 2/10
11. Big Goodbye (fairly good) 7/10
12. Datalore (abysmal) 1/10

TNG was even less consistent in the second half of the season:

13. Angel One (abysmal) 2/10
14. 11001001 (excellent) 10/10
15. Too Short a Season (not good) 3/10
16. When the Bough Breaks (not good...some interesting stuff, but overwhelmed by nonsense) 3/10
17. Home Soil (ok, but pretty silly) 4/10
18. Coming of Age (fairly good) 6/10
19. Heart of Glory (very good, one of TNG's best Klingon episodes) 8/10
20. Arsenal of Freedom (fairly good, fun...original "lower decks" episode) 7/10
21. Symbiosis (not good, embarrassing) 2/10
22. Skin of Evil (ok, but pretty silly) 5/10
23. We'll Always Have Paris (fairly good) 7/10
24. Conspiracy (excellent) 10/10
25. Neutral Zone (not good) 2/10

When you look at how I'd rate DSC in their first 12 vs what I gave TNG, DSC is far-and-away off to a better start. I've also included the "Jammer's Review" (www.jammerreviews.com) score just to add some opinion of someone other than myself:

1. Vulcan Hello 8/10 (vs. TNG 6/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
2. Binary Stars 6/10 (vs. TNG 4/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
3. Context 8/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 0.5/5)
4. Butcher 7/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
5. Chose Pain 7/10 (vs TNG 8/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
6. Lethe 9/10 (vs. TNG 2/10) (Jammer: 2.5/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
7. Magic 8/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 1/5)
8. Si Vis Pacem 6/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer 2/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
9. Into the Forrest 9/10 (vs. TNG 5/10) (Jammer: 3.5/5 vs. TNG 3/5)
10. Despite Yourself 10/10 (vs. TNG 2/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2.5/5)
11. The Wolf Inside 9/10 (vs. TNG 7/10) (Jammer: 3/5 vs. TNG 2/5)
12. Ambition 7/10 (vs. TNG 1/10) (Jammer: n/a vs. TNG 3/5)

I don't think there's any doubt that DSC is off to a better start than TNG was. And TNG became classic and great.

Patience...By the end of the second season, DSC will have roughly as many episodes (and therefore growth opportunities) as TNG did for the it's first season roughly. Even those who are frustrated right now should be a little more forgiving given the rocky production facts DSC navigated and history of the overall franchise. Again, history tells us it will only continue to get better.

I suspect people who dislike the series don't like it for the same reasons that I do like it.

If DSC gets better than I already think it is, what I think is "better" probably won't be what they think is better. Same for the reverse. If it becomes more to their liking, then it might become less to mine. Who knows.

So, at this point, I'm willing to just agree to disagree in those situations and leave it at that. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. I won't give them any issue because I've been on the other end myself.

Well, unless they start complaining about "SJWs!!!!!11111" Then that gets me going, and not just because of their opinion about DSC.
 
But the show portrays their evilness via puerile caricature.

No, it doesn't.

We are told about the Terran Empire's nature by Burnham in episode 10 when they recover the Data Core from the Rebels. Burnham explains their Society, she explains how Terrans "live in constant fear" and why a great deal of the reason they are such jerks is a consequence from the Terran Empire's endless cycle of internal senseless violence. We've seen them taking enjoyment on torturing political enemies and hunting them like animals, justifying that's something they do for the greater good of their Society and not simply because they are evil bastards.

In episode 11 we learn through a Klingon why he rationalizes joining up with other Alien species. The Humans took his language, his culture as they did to every Alien Species. That talks volumes about the Terran Empire. They're xenophobic not only because they believe in some Eugenics fairytale, but because they see different cultures as competitors who must be squashed so the "Empire" can live on. It's a reference to a real world Fascist concept of the "demonization of the other".

In this episode the Emperor explains they have abandoned UFP ideals "millenia ago", indicating that the Terran Empire is probably an evolution of the Roman Empire. That tell us Earth "skipped" the Renaissance, Enlightenment, 18th Century Classical Liberalism, etc. and that the closest to these ideals on the MU are probably concepts from Classical Philosophy. And even those are considered "too radical" for the Terrans. Imagine how draconian one's belief must be if they look at Plato and call him a "dirty Leftie".

They definitely gave us a lot of nuance on the Terrans and why they do the horrible shit they do, they aren't bidimensional as you're implying they are.

Besides, Lorca's a Terran too, isn't he ? I would say that everything he did during this Season is an inquiry on the psyche of Terrans. You can't be more threedimensional than that.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if they got Isaacs with the promise of a finite storyline. A la Eccleston on Who, he may have agreed to a one-and-done.
Thanks for reminding me that Christopher Eccleston had only one series. :wah:

She had no reason to lie at that point. As far as she knew at that moment Lorca was PU Lorca.
Indeed. I don't see how certain commentators in this thread don't get that.

So I guess that theory of Lorca being section 31 is also out the window.
I don't see why Uraei would choose him to be part of Thirty-One. Manipulate circumstances to get desired results from him? Yes. Directly recruit? No.

I really felt they took away from the beauty of having a gay couple on the ship. I want gay characters to feel as “normal” as anyone else. Matter of fact even.
Why did they have to kill Culber, anyway? They've written themselves into a corner. Most of what we got of him was The Boyfriend for Stamets.

Fidget Spinner deaths - that was pretty cool and shocking as well.
I loved that scene.

If every character was as superbly acted and well-written as Lorca was, then we would be in a state of sci-fi fan bliss, IMHO.
Someone would still complain. "I want camp, man! I want Shatner's overracting! I want everyone to be principled and cuddly!"

I don’t think Trek can run away from the power the character of the Captain has.
The whole mythos of the show is built around the CO being the main character. I defy anyone to say otherwise.

Ok I do love William Shatner - but calling him an A actor could be a stretch.
I don't love him. I don't like his acting. I have a very difficult time watching TOS, because of him. /rant

Tilly is Autis..Nope not anymore.
To me, as someone on the autism spectrum, the original portrayal of Burnham was far closer to being (stereotypically, at least) autistic. Tilly just had a lack of self confidence. (Tilly's initial portrayal as nervous and hypersocial was a huge turn-off to someone like me--I avoid people like that IRL as much as possible. My view of her character still hasn't recovered.)

This is as close to objectively wrong as an opinion can be.

Her performance was very camp but I think that's what they were looking for. She delivered it. I like the costuming.

Giving Michelle Yeoh a Wuxia weapon was pure genius and very fitting

The costuming seemed very much a nod to Yeoh's various martial arts movie roles.

Georgiou makes for a great black-hatted villainess

My logic, where Michelle Yeoh is concerned, is unclear. They could make a show called Michelle Yeoh Watching The Weather Channel and I'd probably watch it.

My admiration for Yeoh's acting skills has increased even more since her return to Discovery. She managed to make the rather cliched Emperor character damn near terrifying.

To be honest, I'd give my left arm to watch a Star Trek: Shenzhou series, over Discovery. I think Phillipa Georgiou is a far better person and officer than Michael Burnham could ever hope to be, but they literally just made her a plot device.

But current knoledge about quantumechanics, stringtheory (read Mycellial network, spors)
I have to call this out as utter tripe. It's so off-base, it's not even wrong. The whole mushroom spore network thing is 100 percent pseudoscientific bullshit. What the @#$@#@#$ hell were the writers thinking?

no image of the ship that fired on the Rebel base, etc. etc.
That was the Charon. ;)

At the very most, should she ever have her sentence commuted, she might be worthy of a warrant, considering she seems to be good at her specialty of xeno-anthropology. But never the captain's chair. Never have anyone under her command other than other specialists or lesser-ranked warrant officers. She is fatally flawed and I lay that entirely on the heads of a writers group who appear to have absolutely no understanding of how chains of command, esprit d'corps, or military (or, if you insist, quasi-military) structures actually work.
It drives me nuts, too. I wouldn't let her anywhere near a starship after what she did, even as a civilian contractor. Such a job would require a security clearance--something she should never have again.

the idea that a super secret Starfleet organisation would label their ships and wear black badges is really pretty silly.
That's the hell of it. Thirty-One isn't even Starfleet at all (Kelvinverse BS notwithstanding)! They never were. They are completely unsanctioned (and controlled by a superintelligent computer system in the novel continuity.) :mad:

I loved were only there because he was an evil mirror duplicate and only pure, virtuous and well adjusted people can be in the happy joyous Starfleet.
On TV, anyway. As for the Litverse, Mackinzie Calhoun, anyone? Actually, Lorca reminds me a lot of Calhoun, which is why I like him.

The viewing public has absolutely no comprehension of the profession of arms. And, so too, the writers. And so we get this. When the normal actions of a wartime commander are considered "fascist." That tells me more about the writers and the viewing public than it does about the characters.
Someone actually implied Lorca's fascist for yelling at a subordinate? :rommie:

Next thing you're telling me is Star Trek has was never science fiction either?
To be perfectly honest, it's not. It's science fantasy, and always has been. I don't like it any less because of that, but it's clearly not concerned with even approaching scientific accuracy of any form, regardless of what producers have said in the past. They (at least during the Berman era) were very good at inventing engineering technobabble, but their grasp of even basic physics, biology, and chemistry is horrendous.

* * *

The Charon(sp?) is probably the most ridiculous looking starship we had on Star Trek in, like, ever

The ISS Charon is the most awful Trek design ever, in my opinion.

Fitted out with a spore drive, it becomes invincible.

That's fine. It's ridiculous for that it's carring a miniature sun around. Not an energy field. Or a light pull. A literally friggin' downsized sun! Solar eruptions included. Ugh.

That ship has a very anime vibe to it.

* * *

Once a novel is published, you're aren't editing it. And, GoT is based on multiple novels.
That wasn't true even in the days before ebooks? Now? A book can be updated every few days, if the writer wants to. Some even slap on "version numbers", like with software, now. :rolleyes:

Empress kills her own men - worst cliché ever.
It fits that trope, but I would say said trope is justified in this case. She needed to make sure word didn't get out about there being a parallel universe.

If someone killed my lover, I cannot imagine having that someone's face meeting up with me every time there's a staff meeting...
You shouldn't be having lovers aboard ship to begin with, but that's a rant for another day.

The Terrans are basically Nazis.
No. They aren't space Nazis. This is a space Nazi

2797014.jpg.jpg

A more appropriate cliche would be "space Romans".

Since when Fascists are not "cheesy" and "over-the-top" ?
Fascists (with a capital "F") and Nazis are not the same thing. Nazis had some fascist tendencies, but they weren't Fascists. That you're conflating the two hurts your credibility somewhat.

I think I was under the impression that she would exorcise Tyler and not Voq so I ended up genuinely surprised when it happened the other way around.
Why? Being stuck in a weak human body would be a fate worse than death for Voq. She needed to go ahead and send him to Sto-Vo-Kor. It was the most genuinely Klingon scene of the whole series.

The Tuvix battles will begin again.
Please, no. :ack:
 
Last edited:
So many interesting thoughts on this one... both thoughts of my own, and those shared by others! Hope nobody minds a long-ish rambling post... ;-)

...I agree that Lorca is a huge draw for the show, mainly because of Jason Isaacs' layered acting. (It's not as if the character's been written all that consistently, after all.) I'm thrown by your GOT analogy, though. Sure, many of the characters in that show are driven by the desire for revenge. But the viewers? I certainly don't watch it out of an urge to see the death of hateful characters, and I'd hope others don't either!...

If you are able to rise above the more base reasons why many watch it, then good for you. But at least my perception from my limited viewing of some of it and moreso the reactions of various friends and family to it impress me that it is basically following a fancy version of the formula used by the "professional wrestling" programs. They have the "good" wrestlers and the "villain ones", and they generally introduce some new "villain" wrestler in a match where they openly cheat in front of the viewing audience to win matches. They do this for a while, ramping up the negative emotions of the fans, and then eventually give a payout match where the "good" wrestlers manage to outfox the latest attempt at cheating and win.

That pretty much sums up the formula Game of Thrones used for the Joffrey character. Deliberately make the most abhorrent little tyrant that people can imagine and the give the payout with the Purple Wedding. At least among those I observed, the reactions were not some high-minded philosophical musings, they were celebrating that someone that they had been conditioned to hate intensely had been killed slowly and painfully.


And this was addressed to another, but I'll toss in my two cents:

I've been puzzled by your comments along these lines earlier in the season, and I still am. It helps to know you acknowledge your perspective is shaded by your own military experience, but even so, Burnham's crimes don't seem any less forgivable than those of other familiar Starfleet officers in any number of past stories.

Moreover, one of the appealing things to me about Trek has always been that it's not particularly militaristic, notwithstanding Starfleet's use of naval ranks. I really wouldn't enjoy a show about a rigidly hierarchical, militaristic future... certainly it wouldn't seem at all utopian.

In the real world, pretty much every major attempt to create a utopian society has resulted in rigidly hierarchical militaristic society, because you cannot make people adhere to whatever the utopian vision is -- from Hitler's Third Reich to Stalin's Communist future -- without employing a massive use of force. As one meme so quaintly put it:

2ujtx52.jpg


To me, Starfleet seems more like the kind of organization that makes room for (and use of) everyone's talents and passions, the kind that embodies the ideals of a society built around peace, diplomacy, exploration, and research. From TOS forward, "chain of command" has always been a concept honored as much in the breach as in the observance. When push came to shove in a crisis, for instance, everyone understood that Kirk was responsible for making the final decisions, but that never stopped, say, McCoy from expressing his own passionate opinions right up to that point.

(For the same reasons, I just can't grasp your argument that Stamets was being "insubordinate" to Lorca way back in episode 3 and deserved the dressing-down he got. To me, any Starfleet officer who didn't express his views to his commanding officer about the ethical stakes involved in a decision would be derelict in his duty.)

Bottom line, Starfleet's profession is not really "arms." If things come down to combat, that means someone failed at his job.

You seem to be assuming that peace can be achieved unilaterally. If someone is intent on either subjugating or simply killing you, your own peaceful intentions will not make their threat cease to exist. It was actually illustrated nicely in the prologue to this series -- the two most ardently pacifist characters were also among the first to die. It isn't because the peaceful folks were evil, it is because the Klingons intended to attack regardless what the Federation representatives said.

And in the grand scheme of things, I find it reassuring that IRL we have a society in which most viewers (and writers) don't have any personal experience of military service. The kind of society in which most people did have that experience would be a very different one indeed, and far less comfortable, open, and free. Indeed, it would arguably be more of a precursor to the Mirror Universe than to the UFP.

Actually, I see the opposite. My dad fought in WWII, and I agree with the common sentiment that in many ways they were the "greatest generation". Those young people sacrificed a great deal in order to help the rest of us be free of tyranny. My own father spent Christmas time during the Battle of the Bulge sleeping outside during one of the coldest winters in Belgium's recorded weather records, and saw friends and allies brutally killed by soldiers of one of the most evil regimes in history. He and others who voluntarily endured such hell didn't make our society like the vile dictatorship that they were fighting, they kept us free. People who do these things are not horrible blots on our society, they are our heroes.

In contrast, in today's society after many have been born and raised with no experience of what is at stake in a war, we have increasing numbers of people who believe that they have a "right to not be offended". I've seen a clip of a fringe British politician actually being arrested and handcuffed in modern England for simply reciting verbatim in public a quote by Sir Winston Churchill.

IMHO, the path to something like the Terran Empire doesn't lie in nationalism, military service, or right-wing politics, but rather in the collectivist belief that people who disagree with them are inherently evil and should be punished for it. Once people buy into the absurd notion that they have a "right to not be offended", then they empower the government to deprive others of one of their most basic rights in a civilized society. It is only when the government decides that the original complainants have also committed some sort of thought crime that some of them wake up to the grave that they've dug for themselves.
 
I wonder if the entire Voq storyline was really just a means to an end for making L'Rell a part of the cast crew. And if so, I'm not sure if I'd be impressed or disappointed. :)
 
If you are able to rise above the more base reasons why many watch it, then good for you. But at least my perception from my limited viewing of some of it and moreso the reactions of various friends and family to it impress me that it is basically following a fancy version of the formula used by the "professional wrestling" programs. They have the "good" wrestlers and the "villain ones", and they generally introduce some new "villain" wrestler in a match where they openly cheat in front of the viewing audience to win matches. They do this for a while, ramping up the negative emotions of the fans, and then eventually give a payout match where the "good" wrestlers manage to outfox the latest attempt at cheating and win.

That pretty much sums up the formula Game of Thrones used for the Joffrey character. Deliberately make the most abhorrent little tyrant that people can imagine and the give the payout with the Purple Wedding. At least among those I observed, the reactions were not some high-minded philosophical musings, they were celebrating that someone that they had been conditioned to hate intensely had been killed slowly and painfully.


And this was addressed to another, but I'll toss in my two cents:



In the real world, pretty much every major attempt to create a utopian society has resulted in rigidly hierarchical militaristic society, because you cannot make people adhere to whatever the utopian vision is -- from Hitler's Third Reich to Stalin's Communist future -- without employing a massive use of force. As one meme so quaintly put it:

2ujtx52.jpg




You seem to be assuming that peace can be achieved unilaterally. If someone is intent on either subjugating or simply killing you, your own peaceful intentions will not make their threat cease to exist. It was actually illustrated nicely in the prologue to this series -- the two most ardently pacifist characters were also among the first to die. It isn't because the peaceful folks were evil, it is because the Klingons intended to attack regardless what the Federation representatives said.



Actually, I see the opposite. My dad fought in WWII, and I agree with the common sentiment that in many ways they were the "greatest generation". Those young people sacrificed a great deal in order to help the rest of us be free of tyranny. My own father spent Christmas time during the Battle of the Bulge sleeping outside during one of the coldest winters in Belgium's recorded weather records, and saw friends and allies brutally killed by soldiers of one of the most evil regimes in history. He and others who voluntarily endured such hell didn't make our society like the vile dictatorship that they were fighting, they kept us free. People who do these things are not horrible blots on our society, they are our heroes.

In contrast, in today's society after many have been born and raised with no experience of what is at stake in a war, we have increasing numbers of people who believe that they have a "right to not be offended". I've seen a clip of a fringe British politician actually being arrested and handcuffed in modern England for simply reciting verbatim in public a quote by Sir Winston Churchill.

IMHO, the path to something like the Terran Empire doesn't lie in nationalism, military service, or right-wing politics, but rather in the collectivist belief that people who disagree with them are inherently evil and should be punished for it. Once people buy into the absurd notion that they have a "right to not be offended", then they empower the government to deprive others of one of their most basic rights in a civilized society. It is only when the government decides that the original complainants have also committed some sort of thought crime that some of them wake up to the grave that they've dug for themselves.

Well said x100000000000
 
A more appropriate cliche would be "space Romans".

No. The Terran Empire is a post-Industrial Society. The Roman Empire is a pre-Industrial one. The closest system to the Terran Empire would be the Nazifascist one, since that flourished in a post-Industrial Society IRL through the 1920s to the 1940s.

Fascism was conceptualized by Mussolini as a corny "revival" and "continuation" of the "ancient glory of the Roman Empire" adapted for the contemporaneous age. He intended his Italian Empire to be a "spiritual successor" of the Roman Empire. Just like the Terrans are a successor State too.

Besides, the Terrans practice Eugenics. That's a post 19th century political ideology. The Romans didn't knew what Eugenics were. It's totally anachronistic trying to imply Romans knew concepts like Social Darwinism, Racial Biology pseudosciences, etc. They didn't. It's like saying Capitalism existed in Babylonia during Ancient times.

Fascists (with a capital "F") and Nazis are not the same thing. Nazis had some fascist tendencies, but they weren't Fascists. That you're conflating the two hurts your credibility somewhat.

Nazis and Fascists are the same thing. Brazilian Integralistas, Irish Blueshirts, British Blackshirts, etc. alongside Nazis were all local variations and different interpretations of the original Italian Fascist doctrine. They were all Fascists. They exchanged ideas, they all shared a blatant sense of antisemitism and a hatred for Capitalism and Communism. They were both Far Right political beliefs.

They all believed in the superiority of the citizens of their home countries and they wanted to "revive" the glory of their Nation's past. With the Germans that resulted in the Nazis trying to glorify the Germanic Tribes who fought against the Romans in Ancient Times. The same way Benito and the Blackshirts longed for their "Mare Nostrum".
 
Not a fan of all this MU stuff but still found it entertaining enough...Though not a fan of MU Lorca twist - though called it in my house way back when Cornwall was talking about their holiday/date in ep or whatever it was and he clearly he no idea what she was talking about! Hopefully this do something interesting and unexpected with this - Though I have a feeling Isaacs will leave at end of this season - I can't see him signing up for more than a year - And I suspect Tyler may die 'redeeming' himself killing Lorca to save Burnham...It all seems a bit of an entertaining mess at the moment tbh...There are going to be no cast members left at this rate - apart from Burnham and Tilly!
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top