• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The age of the antihero

Then, when they returned home, it turns out that Starfleet wasn't in a position to go back to that system due to losses. Makes sense to me. :shrug:

The Klingons didn’t go back to that system either which makes zero sense to me.

So, not a single search & rescue, "scavenging", ship retrieval or intelligence gathering operation in the Binary Stars battlefield by both sides for six months... :vulcan:
 
The Klingons didn’t go back to that system either which makes zero sense to me.

So, not a single search & rescue, "scavenging", ship retrieval or intelligence gathering operation in the Binary Stars battlefield by both sides for six months... :vulcan:
Klingons had no reason to because that was a victory for them.

Starfleet didn't have the power to risk Klingon aggression.
 
Actually, Starfleet sent out a recovery fleet with tow-ships(tugboats?) being escorted by 3 or 4 starships. As they neared the Binary system, an emergency came up, and they were forced to put the recovery on hold. 2 months later, Starfleet intelligence expressed interest in the cloaking ship. A few unnamed vessels were sent out, but never heard from again.

As for the Klingons, they left chanting "New Kahless" or something. In case you guys didn't notice, they did come back, saw what happened to their Divine brother, and drive home disillusioned. They didn't know the cloak existed.

Jeepers, I think its time for some of "y'all" to have a rewatch...

Edit: lol. that was "rewatch" not rematch.
 
Last edited:
It was. The dilithium processor is literally "the doodad that holds the dilithium crystal." It's the same thing they stuck Elaan's necklace into in "Elaan of Troyus." Left to the elements with no maintenance or upkeep, the dilithium crystals had broken down and wasted away, leaving a residue on the doodad that was, if mishandled, potentially explosive.

...

Yes. Not because the reactor was powered up, but because dilithium can evidently explode when exposed to electrical current. Which kind of makes sense, considering it was naturally occurring dilithium in combination with a strong magnetic field and tectonic activity that was literally destroying Sarjenka's planet.

It's interesting that the Klingons didn't even need Shenzhou's dilithium, just the doodad that holds it in the reaction chamber

So, it was functional then! What they had to do was unplug and remove it.

Because you do not seem to have even a basic knowledge about what actually HAPPENED in this episode, in addition to the fact that you keep calling it a "power core."

How can I lack that when you just confirmed my argument above?

I also use the term only because it was mentioned in one review, but we mean the same thing.
 
Klingons had no reason to because that was a victory for them.

As you’ve pointed out, the Ship of the Dead was "T'Kuvma’s flagship", not the Klingon flagship. The rest of the Klingons didn’t have cloaking technology. And it only took Kol six months to figure that out, never mind the rest of the Klingons! Impressive!

Actually, Starfleet sent out a recovery fleet with tow-ships(tugboats?) being escorted by 3 or 4 starships. As they neared the Binary system, an emergency came up, and they were forced to put the recovery on hold. 2 months later, Starfleet intelligence expressed interest in the cloaking ship. A few unnamed vessels were sent out, but never heard from again.

And all it would have taken was a couple of throwaway lines in the script like that and (part of the) problem solved, at least on the Federation’s side. Lazy writing.
 
It was a joke...I do that.

As for "fix" it simply means that I don't approach all character motivation with logic. I try to get inside their head and understand their motive, how they would behave with given information, etc. Versus tearing apart their decisions like a review board because the audience has more information that the characters often do.

As you’ve pointed out, the Ship of the Dead was "T'Kuvma’s flagship", not the Klingon flagship. The rest of the Klingons didn’t have cloaking technology. And it only took Kol six months to figure that out, never mind the rest of the Klingons! Impressive!
Kol didn't consider it a strategic advantage.

And all it would have taken was a couple of throwaway lines in the script like that and (part of the) problem solved, at least on the Federation’s side. Lazy writing.
I figured it out and I'm not even a writer :shrug:
 
They HAVE shown a propensity to attack strategic targets of opportunity that the enemy needed for survival, denying them SPECIFIC resources they couldn't get otherwise. They blew up the Jem'hadar's ketrecel white storage facility, for example, and will sometimes take steps to interrupt their enemy's dilithium or fuel supplies. They would probably destroy entire worlds if they thought they could disrupt the Klingons' dilithium supply chain (and arguably DID, depending on how you interpret the destruction of Praxis between the prime and Kelvin universes).

See! The Shenzhou's dilithium processing unit was a specific resource that the Sarcophagus couldn't get otherwise for six months.

The first thing Kirk says when they've been discovered by Sybok's people is "phasers on stun!" so evidently, yes.

I see.

Assault Phaser:

Another unusual setting: a beam that cuts into the flesh it hits without cauterization, one of the few times we’ve seen what these weapons might actually do – the novelization of ST6 calls them ‘burning phasers’ and says they’re outlawed.​

And if they had known where the enemy's flagship actually WAS, they probably would have done exactly that.
If Starfleet had any inkling whatsoever that the ship of the dead was that valuable, they would have destroyed IT, not the Shenzhou.
It didn't become the "flagship" of anything at all until Kol stole it, and then only for symbolic purposes.
There's nothing to consider except for the fact that the Ship of the Dead is NOT their flagship and its strategic value is miniscule AT BEST.

"The Vulcan Hello":

<the Sarcophagus decloaks>
CREWMEMBER (Narwani): Impossible.
[. . .]
GEORGIOU: The Klingon flagship has a stealth mode. It's some kind of cloaking screen, unlike anything we've ever seen, Admiral.​

You were saying? :cool:

I seriously doubt it would even have been a match for the Shenzhou in a straight up fight.

The direct hit from the Sarcophagus after the Shenzhou boosted power to its forward shields:

sarcophagus_shenzhou_heavy_hit.gif


<explosion on the bridge; Narwani falls out of her chair>
GEORGIOU: Ops, damage report.
<explosion at the Ops station; Connor falls out of his chair>
GEORGIOU: Ensign Connor.
<Connor is hurt on the floor>
GANT: Transferring Ops to this station, Captain.
GANT [damage report]: Direct hit. Hull breaches, decks 13 through 15. Emergency force fields in place, bulkheads holding.
GANT: Secondary tactical offline.​

ETA - from the actual episode:
KOL: <Beams aboarD>
VOQ: Kol, what is the reason for your welcome visit?
KOL: The last time I was hear, on the eve of the war, I hurled disrespect. Now i come with humility.
VOQ: T'Kuvma teaches that in a united Klingon empire, no one kneels but our foe.
KOL: Wise words. But words don't win wars. Your house's ship has what no one else has. Cloaking technology that can crush Starfleet. We need you back in the fight.
VOQ: We have scavenged the dead vessels floating around us in the grave yard left by our battle with Starfleet. Six months after that fight, we are almost operational again. But we still lack a dilithium processor. We are almost out of food too. But as T'Kuvma taught us, what belongs to house T'Kuvma belongs to house Kol.
KOL: May the words of your messiah, our messiah, also sustain us. Remain Klingon!
ALL: Remain Klingon!​
Seems evident that Voq didn't even EXPECT to be rescued. Kol's arrival was a pleasant surprise, and he doesn't even bother asking him for a dilithium processor OR for provisions.

It's been six months and Voq thought they were abandoned.

VOQ: T'Kuvma, my lord, it has been six months since your ship was disabled and the war began. We are left behind, in disrepair. Your followers are hungry. Help me guide them to nourishment.​

And while he doesn't ask Kol for repair parts and provisions directly, he does say, "But we still lack a dilithium processor. We are almost out of food too."

He doesn't really need the cloaking device to defeat Starfleet (or at least, he doesn't think he does, or doesn't care). He needs the cloaking device as part of a gimmick to get the other houses to fall in line behind him.

He definitely felt he needed it against the Discovery:

KOL: Cloak us at once.​

This leads me to wonder if maybe the Klingons need a SPECIFIC type of dilithium processor that is actually compatible with their own technology. It could easily be that Shenzhou is only valuable because it's old, while newer vessels like the Shepard or the T'plana'hath would be non-starters. That might explain why Kol didn't offer to give him a spare part.

Voq said, "But we still lack a dilithium processor." He didn't specify any further. And L'Rell said, "The Shenzhou is within range. It may have been abandoned, but it still has an intact dilithium-processing unit." It sounds more like they needed any intact dilithium processor.

At least we confirmed something again. :)
 
Last edited:
Starfleet even returned to retrieve Captain Georgiou’s damned telescope* and not only didn’t scuttle or self-destruct their own ships but didn’t care to examine the enemy ship with the new cloaking screen. Monumental stupidity. :rolleyes:

(* Unless some crewmember retrieved it while they were abandoning ship and hurrying to save their lives which is even more farfetched and silly. They had both the time and composure to pack the Captain’s telescope but somehow not enough time and lots of confusion & disorder so not to engage the ship’s self-destruct mechanism. :brickwall: )

All the work in this argument is being done by the assumption that a destruct order was given or should have been given. Which is OK as rhetoric, but it doesn't work for anyone who doesn't share the assumption.

Speaking of rhetoric, did you actually assume that someone went back to the ship for the telescope? Or is that just a talking point?
 
Last edited:
It was a joke...I do that.

As for "fix" it simply means that I don't approach all character motivation with logic. I try to get inside their head and understand their motive, how they would behave with given information, etc. Versus tearing apart their decisions like a review board because the audience has more information that the characters often do.

It's supposed to be a joke but your next paragraph shows otherwise.

Also, isn't attempting to understand the motives of a character logical?

Finally, I don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to Lorca?
 
And all it would have taken was a couple of throwaway lines in the script like that and (part of the) problem solved, at least on the Federation’s side. Lazy writing.
Scripts don't need to answer every little tiny thing. They have 50 minutes to tell a story and advance the plot, not fill in every little gap for nitpickers. Scripts which are full of unnecessary exposition like that represent 'lazy writing'.
 
Exposition is not lazy writing. If an episode is very heavy on exposition, it can come off as cheesy, but it's not lazy.

Lazy would be creating loose plots that require exposition, then saying "oh well."
 
Last edited:
It's supposed to be a joke but your next paragraph shows otherwise.

Also, isn't attempting to understand the motives of a character logical?

Finally, I don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to Lorca?
Character motivations are not always logical.

And the fact that the decision to not scuttle the Shenzhou is subject to such intense ridicule within this thread...plot hole, lazy writing, etc.
That's because you got inside the characters' heads?? Is that how we're supposed to fill in all these holes?
No one is supposed to do anything. That's how I choose to engage the material.

YMMV and all that.
 
Character motivations are not always logical.

And the fact that the decision to not scuttle the Shenzhou is subject to such intense ridicule within this thread...plot hole, lazy writing, etc.

No one is supposed to do anything. That's how I choose to engage the material.

YMMV and all that.

It's very easy to assume that the destruct systems were off-line. If it could happen to the most advanced starship in the late 24th century (Enterprise-E, Star Trek Nemesis) it could easily happen to the outdated Shenzhou.

It's also very easy to assume that characters are going to do things that don't make sense, particularly in times of crisis.

It is, of course, much harder to accept either of these things when you've already made up your mind that this show is worthless shite, like some of the people you are engaged in a discussion with, because justifying their dislike is dependent upon the validity of arguments such as these you are seeing.
 
It goes both ways.
If there's a plot hole, a logical incongruity(and I'm not saying this is one), those who are not fond of the show criticize it, and might use it to criticize the show as a whole, or at least larger aspects of it.

Those who are fond of the show will adamantly defend against such criticism, and the most sure defense is to argue that it's not actually a plot hole.

Humans aren't very objective, nor are we honest, especially when emotions and loyalties are involved. And we can't really expect a more objective, impartial analysis of Star Trek on a Star Trek message board, made up of serious Trekkin fans(Even though each of us esteems ourselves logical and equitable).
 
Last edited:
Exposition is not lazy writing. If an episode is very heavy on exposition, it can come off as cheesy, but it's not lazy.

Lazy would be creating loose plots that require exposition, then saying "oh well."
I have to agree here. Even a brief reference in dialogue helps consistency AND continuity.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top