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The age of the antihero

There is no reason to affirmatively believe that the rest of it is a lie.
There is reason to doubt its truth. If we're looking for reliable evidence that this is a genuine standing Starfleet policy, this episode doesn't provide it. But you're certainly correct that in itself it does not provide conclusive evidence that it is not, either. (And even if it wasn't at that time, it could have become a policy later.)

Neither Travis nor the rest of the crew questioned the order of heading straight for the plasma eddy. Wanting to keep the ship in one piece before its destruction to persuade the intruders to leave works for either scenario. However, the "elaborate ruse" doesn't remove the possibility of standard orders to keep the ship from falling into enemy hands.
I do see what you're getting at overall, but actually Travis did question it when they got too close, insisting they had no choice but to abort, as if he didn't think the actual intent was to go through with it. I would have thought that if it were the genuine intent, he would have been let in on it (and if it were a general policy, would likely be aware of that too, as a member of the bridge crew in the direct chain of command). Now, T'Pol did continue to order him to maintain his course until Archer confirmed the Takret had gone, true, and I suppose it's possible that Archer might have kept T'Pol in the loop but not Travis. (I tend to doubt it, though, because Travis wasn't an undisciplined or inexperienced officer by any stretch—quite the opposite, in fact—and if he had known that was a duty he was expected to carry out, I think he would have been entirely willing. As would any of them.)

Ironically, the reasons you list why it would make sense to destroy the Enterprise in "The Catwalk" (i.e. "advanced prototype") are the very reasons the alien captain did not believe that Archer was being serious:

CAPTAIN: Earth's first warp five starship? Your father's engine? I've been reading about you, Captain, and I doubt very much if you'll do anything to damage this vessel.​

In other words, he thought it was too valuable to destroy.
Well, that doesn't really give us any insight into Starfleet's perspective on the matter. (If anything, it might even be taken as counter-indication against such a policy of "destroy rather than be taken" being a definite Starfleet tenet at this time, because he'd been diligently doing his homework on them, and obviously found no indication of it! :evil::devil:)

My point was, even if we go ahead and assume for the sake of argument that Archer actually was under orders calling for the destruction of his ship to prevent it from falling into enemy hands, it wouldn't necessarily follow from this that similar orders would extend to any ship, even under the same circumstances, let alone different ones, such as the ship in question being already mortally wounded, there being no hostile force currently engaged in exploiting her, etc. Those would each be additional assumptions we'd have to make on top of the initial one. (Not that I'm suggesting any of them would be a huge stretch, mind you. Just following along with you in "taking the stance of a researcher studying evidence and valid points.";))

BTW, I already mentioned it earlier, but a better example might seem be found in "11001001" (TNG):

PICARD: Captain's log, supplemental...we now know who has commandeered the Enterprise: the Bynars. We can't communicate with the bridge. Commander Riker and I will now try to regain control of our ship.

[...]

PICARD: This way.
RIKER: That's toward Engineering.
PICARD: That's our first step. Verify containment and initiate auto-destruct.
RIKER: Initiate auto-destruct?
PICARD: Our ship has been commandeered by a force of unknown size and intent. We're here alone. We must assume the worst.

[...]

PICARD: If we don't regain control, then no one else must have it either. Now, this is the one decision involving the operation of this vessel which requires you and I to be in total agreement.
RIKER: It's the time allotted that concerns me.
PICARD: As to that, there's no option.
RIKER: I know. It's a five minute countdown.
PICARD: That's sufficient to get to the bridge. Once there, either we'll get control of the vessel, shut off the auto-destruct, or we won't. But this vessel must not fall into hostile hands.
RIKER: Then let's set it and get going.

But of course, there it is not specified whether this is a standing Starfleet order, or merely a judgment call on Picard's part. Riker ultimately concurs with Picard's conclusion, but doesn't seem to have assumed it as the prescribed course of action until Picard explains his reasoning. As Riker is a command officer himself, and one whose participation in such an action is explicitly required, we would expect him to be as familiar with such regulations and standing orders as Picard is. Still, I suppose we could interpret that he just needed a little reminder, as anyone occasionally might, or that he simply expected they'd attempt some other action(s) first before jumping straight to auto-destruct, etc.

Yet we also have basically the same caveats as before (minus the doubt as to the speakers' truthfulness)—namely, that what applies to this vessel as the brand new, top-of-the-line, fully operational Federation flagship, already being actively occupied and exploited, might not necessarily apply if any or all of those conditions were not met. (Which again, is not to exclude the possibility that it indeed would. But this would still be assuming something not directly in evidence.) And moreover, here we have an additional one: this is more than a century after DSC. For all we know, if this be in fact the policy, it could have arisen due to past incidents as portrayed there!

If your argument is that they couldn't have, not that they shouldn't have, then that's a different story.
Whether we're talking about destroying the wreck as a purely prophylactic measure on abandoning it, or coming back to salvage it later, my argument has never been that they shouldn't, but rather that they wouldn't and couldn't, respectively.

But on the former subject, the question you pose also remains open:
Did the Shenzhou have an undamaged auto-destruct system in place? Was it possible and reasonable to use it with a countdown to ensure safe evacuation or not?
The episode does not give us an answer. However, we do know from both "Basics" (VGR) and Nemesis that damage to the ship could, in theory, preclude this. So it's at least possible that this might be pushed into the "couldn't" category as well.

What are you saying, that an enormous battle took place during the commercial break? That the remaining 8 ships were destroyed off screen, and not mentioned? I thought you said Starfleet retreated.
I see no reason why it couldn't have continued during the commercial break, but we already saw further Starfleet ships being ambushed and destroyed before the commercial break (I posted the screenshots above), and only two besides the Shenzhou after, apparently drifting in much the same disabled condition, at the point when the Klingon forces except the sarcophagus ship depart. There are then intervening scenes aboard the Shenzhou where T'Kuvma broadcasts his "get off my lawn, and don't come back!" message to any and all remaining within communications range, and Michael talks her way out of the brig, before we return to the sarcophagus ship where L'Rell tells us that the Federation vessels are all either "hiding or scattered in pieces" (or as I paraphrased it "having either withdrawn or been destroyed/disabled") and that "the fight is won."

What are you saying, that this explicit in-dialogue summary in combination with the exterior shots that we did see isn't good enough, and that we needed to be given a blow-by-blow of exactly what happened to every individual ship? What would lead you to expect that? Did you find that most previous depictions of space battles in Trek went into such complete detail as opposed to merely suggesting the broad strokes? I don't particularly recall that. Heck, some have even taken place almost entirely off-screen or during a commercial break! (Wolf 359 comes to mind.)

What is this "cleave ship" you speak of. Where was that mentioned? Did T'Kuvma have multiple vessels?
The cleave ship was the one that rammed the Europa and was destroyed when she self-destructed. Yes, it was another vessel of T'Kuvma's besides the sarcophagus ship, which he had been holding in reserve up to that point:

T'KUVMA: Lest anyone doubt that I can render my own vessels invisible...

discovery1x02_1209.jpg


I completely understand that it all goes by pretty fast, and there's a lot to absorb, but...you say you watched this three times?:vulcan:

-MMoM:D
 
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I think it would be dumb but I would have to accept it and given the angst in this thread over its apparent non-existence it would be a happy relief! We don't all know how it happened as evidenced by lack of evidence.
Oh, please. Stop being disingenuous.
The reason MMoM told you to rewatch it wasn't because there was a scene you missed, but because you were basing your criticism on things that were not shown. You said they must have returned to the ship after the fact to salvage items - didn't happen. You said the evacuation was rushed - didn't happen. You said Michael's whereabouts were hidden - didn't happen. When we strip away all the nonsense that only happened in your mind during a knee-jerk reaction of "oh shit really" and "like are you kidding me" (as you recount it), all we're left with is your mantra of "dumb" and "bad" while you dodge any real honest analysis.
 
I think it would be dumb but I would have to accept it and given the angst in this thread over its apparent non-existence it would be a happy relief! We don't all know how it happened as evidenced by lack of evidence.
So, it just lacks an explanation? I wasn't aware that it all needed explaining.
 
What are you saying, that an enormous battle took place during the commercial break? That the remaining 8 ships were destroyed off screen, and not mentioned? I thought you said Starfleet retreated.

What is this "cleave ship" you speak of. Where was that mentioned? Did T'Kuvma have multiple vessels?
Commercial break and edited out 'maybe' scenes are not (wink) canon. Or are they?
 
This is not a demand, but could you please show me either by dialogue or script or scene a clarification of how the telescope and when the telescope was retrieved? Otherwise one infers, right? Except there are arguments here that suggest that inferences that are not just one way, are correct and others are not.
No, there are inferences that are acceptable to some and not acceptable to others.

There is little to no evidence that Starfleet has standing orders to scuttle a ship, common sense be damned. Star Trek rarely operates with common sense so lets discard that bit of misinformation. There are also plenty of real world

I infer, based upon other episodes, that Gregiou's will would have been read by the acting captain and personal effects retrieved. There is no evidence that the evacuation was a mad dash.

As, I think @The Mighty Monkey of Mim mentioned, it didn't have to be Saru or Burnham. It could have been a yeoman who was ordered to do so, since captains of the time period had those.

So, it works for me. It doesn't work for you. And that's ok :)
 
No, there are inferences that are acceptable to some and not acceptable to others.

There is little to no evidence that Starfleet has standing orders to scuttle a ship, common sense be damned. Star Trek rarely operates with common sense so lets discard that bit of misinformation. There are also plenty of real world

I infer, based upon other episodes, that Gregiou's will would have been read by the acting captain and personal effects retrieved. There is no evidence that the evacuation was a mad dash.

As, I think @The Mighty Monkey of Mim mentioned, it didn't have to be Saru or Burnham. It could have been a yeoman who was ordered to do so, since captains of the time period had those.

So, it works for me. It doesn't work for you. And that's ok :)
No. YOU might want to disregard references to destroying Starfleet vessels orders in other Trek but others don't have to. That is why this thread has gone on for pages.

I take your inference as filling in the gaps, which is what it is. And that's fine if it works for you, it really is. :) I did on initial viewing think it so weird that this relic was collected. It begged the question when and why further exacerbated by seeing the Shenzhou floating around and exploited by the enemy.
 
No. YOU might want to disregard references to destroying Starfleet vessels orders in other Trek but others don't have to. That is why this thread has gone on for pages.
No, I'm not. I'm ignoring instances were they are not similar circumstances to the Shenzhou.
I take your inference as filling in the gaps, which is what it is. And that's fine if it works for you, it really is. :) I did on initial viewing think it so weird that this relic was collected. It begged the question when and why further exacerbated by seeing the Shenzhou floating around and exploited by the enemy.
The enemy had left. There was no reason for the crew to assume otherwise.
 
@Holly Day First of all, you've stated at least twice now that the other scenarios put forth "would be dumb". Of course, you favor the inference that is least plausible because it's easiest to criticize (Hatewatcher's Razor) but you've also covered your bases so that every other possibility is also "dumb", "bad writing", or a combination of both. So this whole discussion of which inference is correct is actually pointless with you, because you've decided your opinion is correct regardless of the outcome.

Or, are you willing to admit that IF our inference is correct THEN it would NOT be dumb? Perhaps then we could have a sensible discussion. Imagine, for the sake of argument, that there was a scene where you literally saw someone pick up the telescope and take it with them, then another scene where they contact Starfleet to give it to Georgiou's next of kin. Would that be dumb? Yes or no. This is a multiple choice question - please select one answer, no more, no less.
 
zar could you please (this is not a demand) stick to quoting my actual posts, with my words in them, and asking from there?? It flows better that way and is more accurate. I'm not actually the topic of conversation lol.
 
zar could you please (this is not a demand) stick to quoting my actual posts, with my words in them, and asking from there?? It flows better that way and is more accurate. I'm not actually the topic of conversation lol.
Instead of policing the thread structure, you could perhaps just answer a question for once without beating around the bush. That would do a lot more to help conversation flow, IMO.
 
@Holly Day First of all, you've stated at least twice now that the other scenarios put forth "would be dumb". Of course, you favor the inference that is least plausible because it's easiest to criticize (Hatewatcher's Razor) but you've also covered your bases so that every other possibility is also "dumb", "bad writing", or a combination of both. So this whole discussion of which inference is correct is actually pointless with you, because you've decided your opinion is correct regardless of the outcome.

zar could you please (this is not a demand) stick to quoting my actual posts, with my words in them, and asking from there?? It flows better that way and is more accurate. I'm not actually the topic of conversation lol.
He's asking for a clarification of your position, since there seem to be limited options you will accept. Defining of terms for mutual understanding and all that.
 
I've already said what I think just as everyone else has. If you want to bounce off one of my actual posts topic related not poster related, I will be happy to respond from there :)
 
I've already said what I think just as everyone else has. If you want to bounce off one of my actual posts topic related not poster related, I will be happy to respond from there :)
Seriously. You should consider going into politics.
 
No, I'm not. I'm ignoring instances were they are not similar circumstances to the Shenzhou.

The enemy had left. There was no reason for the crew to assume otherwise.
It was a battle zone in a war. The enemy has their own agenda I cannot believe that the crew would assume there would be no enemy 'around'.
 
It was a battle zone in a war. The enemy has their own agenda I cannot believe that the crew would assume there would be no enemy 'around'.
It was a lost battle.

I can think of two situations were they would consider that:
1. They think they are still in Federation territory so destroying the ship would be counterproductive as Starfleet could retrieve it after the crew was rescued.
2. The battle was lost and it was now Klingon territory and the Klingons had left in victory. Why would they stick around if they had won? Allowing the Starfleet crews to die a slow death on powerless ships would be a very dishonorable way to die, in a Klingon view.

If the first one, and the territory is still in dispute, then the crew would have been informed there was no way to retrieve the Shenzou. If the second one, there is no reason to assume the Klingons are going to go around scavenging Federation ships when the stated goal is to "remain Klingon."
 
It didn't they ARE plot holes.

You keep saying that, but you don't seem to ever be able to make a case.

But my question stands anyway. Looks like it's your fault that we drifted off of anti-heroes and onto plotholes, whether real or imagined. It makes sense if the only real topic here is saying bad things about STD, by whatever means necessary.
 
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