The age of the antihero

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Clearly given half a chance the Klingons showed they would salvage whatever they could from Starfleet vessels, no matter what type. There was no advantage to (Starfleet) keeping the Shenzhou afloat. There was to the Klingons though.

That's not even really true. Voq refused to even consider salvaging anything from any Starfleet vessel until they had become desperate after months of picking over every Klingon wreck they could reach. And by that point, Kol had come looking to get his hands on the cloak, so if Shenzhou hadn't been there, it wouldn't have actually made any difference to the outcome. It didn't really provide any significant advantage at all.

Starfleet Order 2005: Orders the destruction of a starship by allowing matter and antimatter to mix in an uncontrolled manner. This was a last resort for a captain that allowed them to prevent their ship or crew from falling into enemy hands. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)

Are you just trolling now? As already addressed, that had nothing to do with preventing the ship from falling into enemy hands there. Always fact-check the wiki.

Well, speaking of fallacies, your argument here is that because Archer lied about his crew being dead, he must have lied about his orders too.

Not exactly. It's more that if part of the premise is obviously a lie, then there's no reason to affirmatively believe the rest of it is true. Subtle difference. But there's more to it than that, anyway. See below.

That's only one of the possibilities but not the only one.

If he were really intent on destroying the ship—which again, like the Glenn, was an advanced prototype, and moreover was already in enemy hands at this point—at all costs, he could have done that without an elaborate ruse, would have tried to get the crew off first, failing that would have disclosed it to them (at least his senior officers), wouldn't have ordered Travis to try to keep them in one piece, etc. Have you actually seen the episode?

That still doesn't remove the possibility of standard orders.

I was trying to make a point that if there is a Starfleet order that involves auto-destruct under some circumstances such as those in TMP, then it's not out of the realm of possibility that there are similar and possibly standard auto-destruct orders such as those mentioned by Archer in "The Catwalk."

Oh, I could believe in standing orders calling for a fully-functioning ship under enemy control to be destroyed if it couldn't be retaken, surely, just as I could believe in standing orders calling for the destruction of a ship if it were the only means necessary by which to stop some greater imminent threat. Neither would be inconsistent with what we've seen. But the Shenzhou was neither fully-functioning, nor under enemy control, nor was there an imminent threat that her destruction would have thwarted. And the idea that there would be standing orders calling for her destruction anyway, just in case any old part of her might prove useful in any manner to anybody at any point down the road...is not supported by anything.

Captain Georgiou left Michael a telescope and an inspirational hologram in her will. It’s a mawkish, manipulative moment that fails to answer how this material wasn’t delivered to Michael sooner, or what idiot salvaged the Shenzhou to snag an ancient telescope while [leaving] a fully-functioning dilithium processor behind.

Michael was a prisoner until shortly before this. Would a prisoner be allowed to have a telescope? Maybe, maybe not. And could it have taken over six months from the Shenzhou's evacuation for the telescope to get back to Starfleet, be processed, and sent out again? Sure could. Especially with a war on.

The Shenzhou wasn't salvaged; the telescope was taken when the crew evacuated. The dilithium processor was intact, but difficult and hazardous to remove, and they had no need of it.

Yeah ... that functioning portable dilithium controller over there ... naw. Probably no Klingons around who might want that.

It was indeed very improbable that any Klingons around would need or want such a thing, yes.

Why not fire a salvo and blow it up for good measure? Like they did with the Glenn. [. . .] the enemy managed to scavenge [Shenzhou] for useful parts that allowed them to bring their flagship with revolutionary cloaking technology back into operation. Seems like blowing up some old ship might be worth the energy required to fire the phasers at its antimatter core.

They were in lifeboats. Do lifeboats even have phasers?

What did they say in the first episode about Starfleet's "tech hygiene"? Doesn't seem like they would leave a ship to rot like that.

They very well might have come back for it if they weren't busy fighting a losing war with the Klingons and it wasn't behind enemy lines and not near any critical systems. They had other things to worry about, other battles to fight, other more pressing needs to allocate their limited resources toward fulfilling.

I guarantee it's SF policy that if a ship can't be salvaged, towed back to base, etc, then it has to be destroyed if the ability to destroy it exists. This would likely involved setting a self destruct that would destroy anything critical. Allowing the enemy open access to all the advanced technology on board would be incomprehensible.

That's a very shaky "guarantee" considering we never heard of such a policy or saw it carried out before. (We later saw this happen with the Glenn, but she was a very special case.)

"Anything critical"? "All the advanced technology"? The Shenzhou was an old, outdated ship with inferior tech. We were told this explicitly in the episode.

Also, any battlefield with floating derelict ships would be scavenged by...scavengers. The advanced components of the ship could be disastrous to a species unfamiliar with them. That would be another reason to destroy it.

This was a pretty remote area of space at the outermost reaches of Federation territory. It's a questionable proposition that any scavengers who might come along wouldn't basically have to already be familiar with tech on par with what could putatively be salvaged from the Shenzhou in order to get there and make such an effort in the first place. But again, I can certainly believe that under optimal circumstances, Starfleet would indeed eventually come clean up at least their half of the mess, recover their dead, etc. Yet there were intervening circumstances that would have made this low on the priority list and difficult to accomplish at that particular time.

Did anyone collect the dead? They may have gone back for them, and got the telescope then.

How could they have done that when the Klingons had them on the run?

It could also just be a telescope sent from Georgieu's home on Earth, and not the same one.

Another nonsensical theory that I don't know why anyone keeps suggesting. It's quite obviously the same telescope, and intended to be.

After all, Saru didn't know about it, neither did Burnham

Where the heck are you getting that from? They clearly both recognized it. They'd both used it in the opening episode. Burnham just didn't expect Georgiou to leave it to her, and Saru in turn didn't expect Burnham to give it to him.

They(Starfleet) still has a fleet of ships there. The two giant fleets faced off for a minute or two, then stopped. There were about equal losses on both sides. The Admiral's ship goes down, then the entire remaining Klingon fleet bails, leaving only the coffin ship, which is nearly destroyed immediately after.

If the Klingons and Starfleet had fleets of equal sizes, and took relatively equal losses, and the Klingons had a mighty number of vessels left to vamoose out of there, what happened to all the Starfleet ships?

That's not correct. The Klingons had twice as many ships as the Feds did, and the Feds suffered far more losses than the Klingons. The Feds withdrew in defeat because they were overwhelmed, and the Klingons (except T'Kuvma's band) went to spread the word of their victory and rally the rest of their forces to further advance on the Federation.

-MMoM

 

[Prax]

That's not even really true. Voq refused to even consider salvaging anything from any Starfleet vessel until they had become desperate after months of picking over every Klingon wreck they could reach. And by that point, Kol had come looking to get his hands on the cloak, so if Shenzhou hadn't been there, it wouldn't have actually made any difference to the outcome. It didn't really provide any significant advantage at all.


Are you just trolling now? As already addressed, that had nothing to do with preventing the ship from falling into enemy hands there. Always fact-check the wiki.


Not exactly. It's more that if part of the premise is obviously a lie, then there's no reason to affirmatively believe the rest of it is true. Subtle difference. But there's more to it than that, anyway. See below.


If he were really intent on destroying the ship—which again, like the Glenn, was an advanced prototype, and moreover was already in enemy hands at this point—at all costs, he could have done that without an elaborate ruse, would have tried to get the crew off first, failing that would have disclosed it to them (at least his senior officers), wouldn't have ordered Travis to try to keep them in one piece, etc. Have you actually seen the episode?


Oh, I could believe in standing orders calling for a fully-functioning ship under enemy control to be destroyed if it couldn't be retaken, surely, just as I could believe in standing orders calling for the destruction of a ship if it were the only means necessary by which to stop some greater imminent threat. Neither would be inconsistent with what we've seen. But the Shenzhou was neither fully-functioning, nor under enemy control, nor was there an imminent threat that her destruction would have thwarted. And the idea that there would be standing orders calling for her destruction anyway, just in case any old part of her might prove useful in any manner to anybody at any point down the road...is not supported by anything.


Michael was a prisoner until shortly before this. Would a prisoner be allowed to have a telescope? Maybe, maybe not. And could it have taken over six months from the Shenzhou's evacuation for the telescope to get back to Starfleet, be processed, and sent out again? Sure could. Especially with a war on.

The Shenzhou wasn't salvaged; the telescope was taken when the crew evacuated. The dilithium processor was intact, but difficult and hazardous to remove, and they had no need of it.


It was indeed very improbable that any Klingons around would need or want such a thing, yes.


They were in lifeboats. Do lifeboats even have phasers?


They very well might have come back for it if they weren't busy fighting a losing war with the Klingons and it wasn't behind enemy lines and not near any critical systems. They had other things to worry about, other battles to fight, other more pressing needs to allocate their limited resources toward fulfilling.


That's a very shaky "guarantee" considering we never heard of such a policy or saw it carried out before. (We later saw this happen with the Glenn, but she was a very special case.)

"Anything critical"? "All the advanced technology"? The Shenzhou was an old, outdated ship with inferior tech. We were told this explicitly in the episode.


This was a pretty remote area of space at the outermost reaches of Federation territory. It's a questionable proposition that any scavengers who might come along wouldn't basically have to already be familiar with tech on par with what could putatively be salvaged from the Shenzhou in order to get there and make such an effort in the first place. But again, I can certainly believe that under optimal circumstances, Starfleet would indeed eventually come clean up at least their half of the mess, recover their dead, etc. Yet there were intervening circumstances that would have made this low on the priority list and difficult to accomplish at that particular time.


How could they have done that when the Klingons had them on the run?


Another nonsensical theory that I don't know why anyone keeps suggesting. It's quite obviously the same telescope, and intended to be.


Where the heck are you getting that from? They clearly both recognized it. They'd both used it in the opening episode. Burnham just didn't expect Georgiou to leave it to her, and Saru in turn didn't expect Burnham to give it to him.



That's not correct. The Klingons had twice as many ships as the Feds did, and the Feds suffered far more losses than the Klingons. The Feds withdrew in defeat because they were overwhelmed, and the Klingons (except T'Kuvma's band) went to spread the word of their victory and rally the rest of their forces to further advance on the Federation.

-MMoM

When did this happen? It was implied to be a stalemate, hence why the Admiral said they'd suffered similar losses on each side and would now present "PEACE."

You contradicted yourself. Did the Klingons have them on the run, or did they go out to spread the word of their victory? And when did Starfleet retreat? Was it before the Admiral talked to T'Kuvma? After? None of this happened on screen, or in dialogue.

Also, I never said they didn't know what the telescope was, or that they'd never seen it, just that they didn't know it was sent to them. They didn't know what was in the telescope case from Georgieu. Sir didn't know anything was sent to Burnham.

If the telescope was recovered during the evacuation, it would have been either Burnham or Sara(if Burnham wasn't in command during the evac) who ordered it taken.

But I'm repeating myself, as others have already responded to my comment, to which I've done also.

 

[Megapolis]

Well, make up your mind, dude. Do they trash their resources or save them? And this neglects the fact that there were no functional ships left. Both fleets were wiped out, and any survivors left in escape pods. To keep the ship from rotting, or even to change their mind and blow it up, would require another mission and another starship just to do so. There is no suggestion that that ever happened, or even a reason to think it would have been plausible given that they're still fighting 6 months later.

You do realize that those comments are quotes from other people on how they see the situation? It sounds like they are saying that the Shenzhou should have either been salvaged or destroyed to accomplish the same goal. If you agree it should have but could not due to the circumstances, then that's a different argument. Otherwise, it sounds like some believe that Starfleet should have diverted a ship to take care of it, if the auto-destruct was damaged.

I was simply making an observation that it's not surprising to see those types of comments. I'm not discounting possibility for an explanation.

Fire a salvo.
From what? Their escape pods?

The phasers... on their escape pods?

It sounds like the poster is saying that a ship should have been diverted to take care of it, if the Shenzhou's auto-destruct was damaged.

"flag ship?" The Klingons abandoned them for six months and only showed up later when one of their generals got the idea that maybe the cloaking device wasn't the crapshoot that literally everyone else in the galaxy thought it was. Kol was going to get the device one way or the other; if the ship hadn't been operable, he would have just taken the DEVICE and left it there.

Sarcophagus:

The Sarcophagus, or Ship of the Dead, was a starship that originally served as the flagship of the House of T'Kuvma.

[. . .]

The vessel was left stranded in the binary system for six months afterwards, with dwindling food supplies and no way to repair or replace its dilithium processing unit.

[. . .]

Kol used the Sarcophagus as his personal flagship, directing the war effort from its bridge.​

In TOS: "Balance of Terror" Kirk could not understand the cloaking device until Spock explained it to him:

KIRK: Position of the intruder, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Disappeared. Interesting how they became visible for just a moment.
[. . .]
KIRK: Go to full magnification.
SULU: Screen is on full mag, sir.
KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.​

That doesn't sound like "literally everyone else in the galaxy" thought it was a "crapshoot."

How is it "sensitive" technology when the Klingons already know enough about the technology to scavenge it AND adapt it to their own engine systems? For all we know, Starfleet bought the thing from Radio Shack.

The original quote said "important and sensitive" technology. It sounds like an important component because otherwise they would have just used some kind of "bypass" or "compensate" to repair the Sarcophagus instead of it being left stranded. The unit also had to be removed delicately.

The only exceptions, from what we can tell, are the Glenn, the Lantree and the Enterprise-E, though in the latter case it's really an example of both.

It's also possible that they are not exceptions.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

When did this happen? It was implied to be a stalemate, hence why the Admiral said they'd suffered similar losses on each side and would now present "PEACE."

You contradicted yourself. Did the Klingons have them on the run, or did they go out to spread the word of their victory? And when did Starfleet retreat? Was it before the Admiral talked to T'Kuvma? After? None of this happened on screen, or in dialogue.

Did you stop watching there, or what? Anderson got naively suckered by T'Kuvma. After the cease fire was offered and "accepted" T'Kuvma revealed his cleave ship by having it ram the Europa, and a second wave of Klingon reinforcements—in addition to the 24 ships they started out with, which was already twice as many as the Feds had there—were shown warping in and ambushing the other remaining SF vessels. After the Europa managed to take out the cleave ship as she was being destroyed, we went to commercial break. When we came back...

T'KUVMA: We have suffered losses, but the Federation has suffered far more. Leaders, return to Qo'noS. Declare far and wide that the Klingon race fights as a united Empire once again.
VOQ: Open your hearts to the one who delivered this great day. Follow the light. Follow T'Kuvma. T'Kuvma the Unforgettable!

[...]

T'KUVMA: Members of the Federation. What you call your most remote borders, I call too close to Klingon territory. You only live now to serve as witnesses of Klingon supremacy, to be my herald. We do not desire to know you. But you will know our great houses, standing as one under Kahless, reborn in me, T'Kuvma!

[...]

L'RELL: The Federation ships are hiding...or scattered in pieces. They pose no threat.
T'KUVMA: Then the fight is won.
L'RELL: Yes.

Yes, they managed to disable the sarcophagus ship after that with a clever ploy, but then in following episodes we find out that the Klingons have had Starfleet on the ropes since then, as evidenced by references to them being "tired of losing" and needing to "turn the tide" of the war by perfecting the spore drive, defeating the cloak, etc. I'll have to do some more re-watching to provide more specific references. (Respectfully, perhaps your own analysis would benefit from doing the same.)

Also, I never said they didn't know what the telescope was, or that they'd never seen it, just that they didn't know it was sent to them. They didn't know what was in the telescope case from Georgieu. Sir didn't know anything was sent to Burnham.

If the telescope was recovered during the evacuation, it would have been either Burnham or Sara(if Burnham wasn't in command during the evac) who ordered it taken.

Yes, and they would have turned it in to Starfleet, expecting that it would be delivered to her family or next of kin. They wouldn't have expected to ever see it again themselves. They didn't know that Georgiou had willed it to Burnham. The container it was in when she received it bore markings that indicated it was packaged at Starfleet Headquarters. There would be no reason for her to recognize what it was before opening it.

-MMoM

 

[fireproof78]

Did you stop watching there, or what? Anderson got naively suckered by T'Kuvma. After the cease fire was offered and "accepted" T'Kuvma revealed his cleave ship by having it ram the Europa, and a second wave of Klingon reinforcements—in addition to the 24 ships they started out with, which was already twice as many as the Feds had there—were shown warping in and ambushing the other remaining SF vessels. After the Europa managed to take out the cleave ship as she was being destroyed, we went to commercial break. When we came back...

T'KUVMA: We have suffered losses, but the Federation has suffered far more. Leaders, return to Qo'noS. Declare far and wide that the Klingon race fights as a united Empire once again.
VOQ: Open your hearts to the one who delivered this great day. Follow the light. Follow T'Kuvma. T'Kuvma the Unforgettable!

[...]

T'KUVMA: Members of the Federation. What you call your most remote borders, I call too close to Klingon territory. You only live now to serve as witnesses of Klingon supremacy, to be my herald. We do not desire to know you. But you will know our great houses, standing as one under Kahless, reborn in me, T'Kuvma!

[...]

L'RELL: The Federation ships are hiding...or scattered in pieces. They pose no threat.
T'KUVMA: Then the fight is won.
L'RELL: Yes.

Yes, they managed to disable the sarcophagus ship after that with a clever ploy, but then in following episodes we find out that the Klingons have had Starfleet on the ropes since then, as evidenced by references to them being "tired of losing" and needing to "turn the tide" of the war by perfecting the spore drive, defeating the cloak, etc. I'll have to do some more re-watching to provide more specific references. (Respectfully, perhaps your own analysis would benefit from doing the same.)


Yes, and they would have turned it in to Starfleet, expecting that it would be delivered to her family or next of kin. They wouldn't have expected to ever see it again themselves. They didn't know that Georgiou had willed it to Burnham. The container it was in when she received it bore markings that indicated it was packaged at Starfleet Headquarters. There would be no reason for her to recognize what it was before opening it.

-MMoM

I think I'll yield to you. Much more clearer than I have written

 

[zar]

Really it isn't a demand but if there was a scene or a reference in dialogue to the scene of how the telescope was retrieved it would clear everything up. Just a simple bit of help AND I would happily accept it.

Like I said, that's obviously a lie. You've made it abundantly clear about how you feel about the concept through your last 80 or so posts in this thread, not to mention the one right above when you asked for the scene:

Either someone got it later or somebody decided it was a... necessity to evacuate. That is dumb. Please don't ask me to watch that again, it was stupid the first time.

It would make no difference to you whether this "dumb" scene was explicit. We all know it happened, including you. The fact that it wasn't spoonfed to you was never your problem, so don't pretend it was. It's a red herring that you're using to avoid defending your criticism.

Someone rescued the telescope. Obviously. Why is that dumb? Note the question mark.

 

[Prax]

Did you stop watching there, or what? Anderson got naively suckered by T'Kuvma. After the cease fire was offered and "accepted" T'Kuvma revealed his cleave ship by having it ram the Europa, and a second wave of Klingon reinforcements—in addition to the 24 ships they started out with, which was already twice as many as the Feds had there—were shown warping in and ambushing the other remaining SF vessels. After the Europa managed to take out the cleave ship as she was being destroyed, we went to commercial break. When we came back...

T'KUVMA: We have suffered losses, but the Federation has suffered far more. Leaders, return to Qo'noS. Declare far and wide that the Klingon race fights as a united Empire once again.
VOQ: Open your hearts to the one who delivered this great day. Follow the light. Follow T'Kuvma. T'Kuvma the Unforgettable!

[...]

T'KUVMA: Members of the Federation. What you call your most remote borders, I call too close to Klingon territory. You only live now to serve as witnesses of Klingon supremacy, to be my herald. We do not desire to know you. But you will know our great houses, standing as one under Kahless, reborn in me, T'Kuvma!

[...]

L'RELL: The Federation ships are hiding...or scattered in pieces. They pose no threat.
T'KUVMA: Then the fight is won.
L'RELL: Yes.

Yes, they managed to disable the sarcophagus ship after that with a clever ploy, but then in following episodes we find out that the Klingons have had Starfleet on the ropes since then, as evidenced by references to them being "tired of losing" and needing to "turn the tide" of the war by perfecting the spore drive, defeating the cloak, etc. I'll have to do some more re-watching to provide more specific references. (Respectfully, perhaps your own analysis would benefit from doing the same.)


Yes, and they would have turned it in to Starfleet, expecting that it would be delivered to her family or next of kin. They wouldn't have expected to ever see it again themselves. They didn't know that Georgiou had willed it to Burnham. The container it was in when she received it bore markings that indicated it was packaged at Starfleet Headquarters. There would be no reason for her to recognize what it was before opening it.

-MMoM

I went and watched the scene again to give you the benefit of doubt, but no. It happened as I explained it. You mentioned more Klingon reinforcements coming in, and I didn't remember that, but yes, that's sort of true...maybe. As the admiral's ship is being crushed, 3 or so more ships warp in and begin firing. Then the Admiral self destructs.

Cut to black...commercial break

Back to the show, the battle is OVER. 3 Starfleet ships were disabled, plus the Shenzou, that's 4(Per Georgieu's dialogue to the Admiral a moment ago. The Klingons are having a conference call. Then they just leave, and Saru is like "wtf?!"

Then Georgieu plans to blow up the coffin ship(apparently the Admirals warp core breach didn't damage it)we know the rest. If I were to speculate, I'd say T'Kuvma was planning to leave as well, once he finished collecting the dead. Or maybe he was just gonna camp out there longer. Who knows.

This is the third time I've seen this. It seems like there's a big chunk of the episode missing.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I went and watched the scene again to give you the benefit of doubt, but no. It happened as I explained it.

Nope. You said:

They(Starfleet) still has a fleet of ships there. The two giant fleets faced off for a minute or two, then stopped. There were about equal losses on both sides. The Admiral's ship goes down, then the entire remaining Klingon fleet bails, leaving only the coffin ship, which is nearly destroyed immediately after.

If the Klingons and Starfleet had fleets of equal sizes, and took relatively equal losses, and the Klingons had a mighty number of vessels left to vamoose out of there, what happened to all the Starfleet ships?

The fleets were not of equal sizes. The Feds started off with twelve ships. The Klingons started off with 24, and at least ten more (plus the cleave ship) entered later. They did not take equal losses. The Federation took far more. And the Klingons didn't "bail" afterwards, they left the battlefield in overwhelming victory—with all Starfleet ships having either withdrawn or been destroyed/disabled—and went to go rally the rest of their forces to start engaging the Federation elsewhere in all the other battles we heard about subsequently, forcing the Feds to put all their resources into defending against those advances. Starfleet had no opportunity to return to the Binaries and recover anything. It was now effectively enemy territory, and they were losing ground to the Klingons, not gaining it.

You mentioned more Klingon reinforcements coming in, and I didn't remember that, but yes, that's sort of true...maybe. As the admiral's ship is being crushed, 3 or so more ships warp in and begin firing.

It was a lot more than three:

Every one of those ships warped in. You can't even see them all fully in the shot, some only have bits sticking in at the margins, but you see and hear the warp flashes as each arrives. Unless some of them had warped away during the battle and then warped back, which I didn't see any suggestion of, these were all fresh entries to the fray. (But even if that were the case, the Klingons already had twice the ships the Feds did at the outset. So what you said would still be inaccurate.)

-MMoM

 

[Megapolis]

And by that point, Kol had come looking to get his hands on the cloak, so if Shenzhou hadn't been there, it wouldn't have actually made any difference to the outcome.

And if Kol hadn't come?

Not exactly. It's more that if part of the premise is obviously a lie, then there's no reason to affirmatively believe the rest of it is true.

There is no reason to affirmatively believe that the rest of it is a lie.

If he were really intent on destroying the ship—which again, like the Glenn, was an advanced prototype, and moreover was already in enemy hands at this point—at all costs, he could have done that without an elaborate ruse, would have tried to get the crew off first, failing that would have disclosed it to them (at least his senior officers), wouldn't have ordered Travis to try to keep them in one piece, etc. Have you actually seen the episode?

How would he get the crew off first? They were caught inside a neutronic storm and only had three EV suits limited to 22 minutes in radiation, and the ship was crawling with Takret security. Neither Travis nor the rest of the crew questioned the order of heading straight for the plasma eddy. Wanting to keep the ship in one piece before its destruction to persuade the intruders to leave works for either scenario. The "elaborate ruse" doesn't remove the possibility of standard orders to keep the ship from falling into enemy hands.

Oh, I could believe in standing orders calling for a fully-functioning ship under enemy control to be destroyed if it couldn't be retaken, surely, just as I could believe in standing orders calling for the destruction of a ship if it were the only means necessary by which to stop some greater imminent threat. Neither would be inconsistent with what we've seen. But the Shenzhou was neither fully-functioning, nor under enemy control, nor was there an imminent threat that her destruction would have thwarted. And the idea that there would be standing orders calling for her destruction anyway, just in case any old part of her might prove useful in any manner to anybody at any point down the road...is not supported by anything.

The Shenzhou may not have been under immediate enemy control but that doesn't remove the risk of falling under enemy control at some point, considering the circumstances.

Ironically, the reasons you list why it would make sense to destroy the Enterprise in "The Catwalk" (i.e. "advanced prototype") are the very reasons the alien captain did not believe that Archer was being serious:

CAPTAIN: Earth's first warp five starship? Your father's engine? I've been reading about you, Captain, and I doubt very much if you'll do anything to damage this vessel.​

In other words, he thought it was too valuable to destroy.

The dilithium processor was intact, but difficult and hazardous to remove, and they had no need of it.

Klingons did.

It was indeed very improbable that any Klingons around would need or want such a thing, yes.

Considering how important the component is in their warp propulsion system?

They were in lifeboats. Do lifeboats even have phasers?

Clearly the poster was not referring to lifeboats.

They very well might have come back for it if they weren't busy fighting a losing war with the Klingons and it wasn't behind enemy lines and not near any critical systems. They had other things to worry about, other battles to fight, other more pressing needs to allocate their limited resources toward fulfilling.

If your argument is that they couldn't have, not that they shouldn't have, then that's a different story.

The Shenzhou was an old, outdated ship with inferior tech. We were told this explicitly in the episode.

Inferior doesn't mean useless and unimportant tech, especially if an enemy could later use it against you.

 

[Megapolis]

Did the Shenzhou have an undamaged auto-destruct system in place? Was it possible and reasonable to use it with a countdown to ensure safe evacuation or not?

I'd like to point out that my motivation here is pure curiosity. If it's currently possible to establish what Starfleet would want or not want to do when it comes to scuttling its ships under different circumstances, then it can be more accurately determined if it's a retcon, plot hole or something else. We can also look at possible reasons why a particular ship was or was not scuttled or destroyed by some available means.

For now, I'm taking the stance of a researcher studying evidence and valid points.

 

[AlanC9]

That's a reasonable attitude, Megapolis. But there isn't going to be a there there. It's not like there's a real Starfleet with an actual policy that we can discover through research.

 

[AlanC9]

If the telescope was recovered during the evacuation, it would have been either Burnham or Saru(if Burnham wasn't in command during the evac) who ordered it taken.

We don't know that anyone ordered the telescope taken. It could have been brought on the initiative of any crewman who knew about it and had time to grab it. A captain in this era would have a yeoman, for instance.

 

[fireproof78]

In other words, he thought it was too valuable to destroy.

The Shenzhou definitely was not the NX-01 so it is an unfair comparison, at best.

Inferior doesn't mean useless and unimportant tech, especially if an enemy could later use it against you.

Is there a reason the crew of the Shenzhou would expect any one to use their technology against them?

 

[Prax]

Nope. You said:


The fleets were not of equal sizes. The Feds started off with twelve ships. The Klingons started off with 24, and at least ten more (plus the cleave ship) entered later. They did not take equal losses. The Federation took far more. And the Klingons didn't "bail" afterwards, they left the battlefield in overwhelming victory—with all Starfleet ships having either withdrawn or been destroyed/disabled—and went to go rally the rest of their forces to start engaging the Federation elsewhere in all the other battles we heard about subsequently, forcing the Feds to put all their resources into defending against those advances. Starfleet had no opportunity to return to the Binaries and recover anything. It was now effectively enemy territory, and they were losing ground to the Klingons, not gaining it.


It was a lot more than three:

Every one of those ships warped in. You can't even see them all fully in the shot, some only have bits sticking in at the margins, but you see and hear the warp flashes as each arrives. Unless some of them had warped away during the battle and then warped back, which I didn't see any suggestion of, these were all fresh entries to the fray. (But even if that were the case, the Klingons already had twice the ships the Feds did at the outset. So what you said would still be inaccurate.)

-MMoM

What are you saying, that an enormous battle took place during the commercial break? That the remaining 8 ships were destroyed off screen, and not mentioned? I thought you said Starfleet retreated.

What is this "cleave ship" you speak of. Where was that mentioned? Did T'Kuvma have multiple vessels?

 

[zar]

Did the Shenzhou have an undamaged auto-destruct system in place? Was it possible and reasonable to use it with a countdown to ensure safe evacuation or not?

I'd like to point out that my motivation here is pure curiosity. If it's currently possible to establish what Starfleet would want or not want to do when it comes to scuttling its ships under different circumstances, then it can be more accurately determined if it's a retcon, plot hole or something else. We can also look at possible reasons why a particular ship was or was not scuttled or destroyed by some available means.

For now, I'm taking the stance of a researcher studying evidence and valid points.

Forgive me, but I have a hard time believing your "research" is unbiased. In your earlier list of "observations" you posted a link to this reddit thread, and in your report suggested that the only counter-argument was this joke:

"Couldn't destroy it. Had to go pick up the captain's telescope."

When in fact almost every other post in that thread coherently answered your questions already, e.g.:

"It's hard to say what Starfleet's policy is, but I think the key factor is that the binary stars are near the front lines of a shooting war.
Six months isn't that long in the grand scheme of things. They may have been just waiting for the region to settle down before mounting any kind of salvage operation (or scuttle operation)."

"Iirc, Wolf 359 was left in a similar manner. Perhaps Starfleet views battle sites in a similar fashion to how sites like Pearl Harbor have been maintained."

"I think Starfleet is a bit too preoccupied with the war right now to mount any kind of clean up op at the binary star system. Ships probably showed up shortly after the battle to gather whatever survivors they could then they left and haven't been back. idk about the other ships but the Shenzhou is definitely considered to old to be of any strategic value."

Your questions also seem to be framed with the default assumption that self-destruct was the proper action, rather than trying to determine what that is:

"Did the Shenzhou have an undamaged auto-destruct system in place? Was it possible and reasonable to use it with a countdown to ensure safe evacuation or not?"

Of course the implication here is that they should have, if the answers are yes. Otherwise, why ask? We could also ask if the captain's waffle-maker was damaged, but it's a rather pointless question isn't it? I mean, unless you're operating on a preconceived notion that a lack of waffles is a plot hole, for example.

And I guess this kind of thing is supposed to be balanced, neutral research, too:

It's also possible that they are not exceptions.

There is no reason to affirmatively believe that the rest of it is a lie.

The "elaborate ruse" doesn't remove the possibility of standard orders to keep the ship from falling into enemy hands.

But really, it isn't. This is just asking "but what if you're wrong?" It's giving an alternate theory contrary to evidence and asking for it to be disproved, which is backwards. Honest research works from the ground up.

Simply put, there is no definitive Starfleet policy to speak of, but we know for a fact that it is not done in many similar situations, and every time it was done was in dissimilar situations. So, at best, we could say it's "possible" that there is a policy but in practice it's often ignored. Either way, it's consistent.

 

[AlanC9]

How'd this thread turn into "make up fake plotholes," anyway? The original topic was, at least, interesting.

 

[fireproof78]

How'd this thread turn into "make up fake plotholes," anyway? The original topic was, at least, interesting.

Another terrible case of thread drift.

 

[Refuge]

How'd this thread turn into "make up fake plotholes," anyway? The original topic was, at least, interesting.

It didn't they ARE plot holes.

 

[Refuge]

Like I said, that's obviously a lie. You've made it abundantly clear about how you feel about the concept through your last 80 or so posts in this thread, not to mention the one right above when you asked for the scene:


It would make no difference to you whether this "dumb" scene was explicit. We all know it happened, including you. The fact that it wasn't spoonfed to you was never your problem, so don't pretend it was. It's a red herring that you're using to avoid defending your criticism.

Someone rescued the telescope. Obviously. Why is that dumb? Note the question mark.

I think it would be dumb but I would have to accept it and given the angst in this thread over its apparent non-existence it would be a happy relief! We don't all know how it happened as evidenced by lack of evidence.

 

[Refuge]

When did this happen? It was implied to be a stalemate, hence why the Admiral said they'd suffered similar losses on each side and would now present "PEACE."

You contradicted yourself. Did the Klingons have them on the run, or did they go out to spread the word of their victory? And when did Starfleet retreat? Was it before the Admiral talked to T'Kuvma? After? None of this happened on screen, or in dialogue.

Also, I never said they didn't know what the telescope was, or that they'd never seen it, just that they didn't know it was sent to them. They didn't know what was in the telescope case from Georgieu. Sir didn't know anything was sent to Burnham.

If the telescope was recovered during the evacuation, it would have been either Burnham or Sara(if Burnham wasn't in command during the evac) who ordered it taken.

But I'm repeating myself, as others have already responded to my comment, to which I've done also.

Welcome to our world. Those that see the show and the plot as not being the same as others...