Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
The following is based on an email I sent to our own @Enterpriserules, but is also applicable in terms of a broader discussion of The Last Jedi:
I've touched on this before, but I very firmly believe that a good chunk of the negative reaction people have had to The Last Jedi is predicated on perception and/or an inability to let go of the same.
I personally had some major misgivings about The Force Awakens and have only seen the film twice (the second time having been just this past Friday night), all predicated on my perception of J.J. Abrams' viewpoint on Star Wars versus my own, but what I came to realize, thanks in part to a couple of the hosts from the Full of Sith Podcast, is that I ultimately needed to let go of my perceptions and look deeper because the things from the franchise that I personally connect with, such as archetype, mythology, and echoing, are in fact part of TFA, even if they're not central to the way that Abrams connects with the franchise, ancd would like to suggest that those who have issues with The Last Jedi maybe consider the following:
1) J.J. Abrams, because of the way he views Star Wars, felt that explaining the history of the New Republic and the politics of the galaxy ran contrary to the nature of the franchise, unfortunately painting Rian, who has a much less rigid and stringent viewpoint on the franchise, into somewhat of a corner because, had he taken the time to try and explain the things that J.J. didnt, TLJ could have gotten bogged down, so what he opted to do instead was to run with Abrams' basic setup and, using his own viewpoint on the franchise, deconstruct the formula of Star Wars while simultaneously celebrating it, treating the history as if there was little of importance that occurred in the 30-year period between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens because, in truth, there was little of importance that happened during that time period, and only shedding light on those things that occurred in that timeframe that WERE important, such as the specific circumstances that led to Ben Solo's fall and Luke's reaction to it, both of which are events that occurred far closer to TFA and TLJ than many fans think, as per information from people like Pablo Hidalgo.
2) I've seen a lot of online discussion focused on J.J. Abrams' reputation as the "master of the mystery box", but, in looking back at the past two years, what ended up happening is that the perception of said reputation was ultimately just that, and most of the things that TFA seems to treat as mysteries to be solved aren't in fact all that mysterious.
Let's take Snoke, for example. All that TFA tells us, independent of all external expectations, is that he's Dark Side user who got to Ben Solo and influenced him to the point that he fell away from the Light Side. However, fans, based on a combination of Abrams' reputation and the perception of how Star Wars storytelling typically plays itself out, became convinced that there was more to his story than was actually communicated onscreen and in ancillary materials, despite the efforts of Pablo Hidalgo and others to communicate the fact that his backstory and the specific details thereof were not in fact all that important.
The same thing applies to Rey, although in her case, the gulf between perception/expectation and what was presented is even wider because TFA itself actually telegraphs and spells out the ultimate resolution of the 'mystery' regarding who she is as presented in The Last Jedi, which is, again, something that people directly involved in the making of the films attempted to communicate to the fandom, only to be met by resistance and/or flat-out denial and rejection based on J J. Abrams' reputation as the "mystery box guy".
3) A big thematic element of The Last Jedi, especially as it concerns Luke Skywalker's part in the story, is the idea of "learning the wrong lesson", but the concept also applies to the franchise as a whole and the way that Rian chooses to tell his story and progress forward from the conclusion of TFA because, ultimately, he uses TLJ's narrative to say to the fandom "you learned the wrong lesson" about how Star Wars narratives are handled. In his "first blush" reaction analysis of TLJ, Full of Sith Podcast host Bryan Young said that The Last Jedi is simultaneously quintessentially Star Wars and like no other Star Wars movie ever made, and he's right, because Rian takes everything that is absent from Abrams' viewpoint on Star Wars, acknowledges the way that much of the rest of the fandom views the frqnchise, and then flips the latter viewpoint on its ear.
4) Much has been made of how the plotline involving the First Order and the Resistance in TLJ is illogical and makes no tactical or strategic sense, but something that occurred to me after seeing the film is that its intent was to "expose the pretenders" on both sides of the conflict. Hux, Snoke, and the rest of the First Order are content to slowly pick off the Resistance because they view them as pretenders, which in turn exposes them as the pretenders to the 'legacy of the Empire' that they are because they don't take a more decisive tack in eliminating the Resistance.
This idea of "exposing the pretenders" also comes into play in regards to the characterization of Hux and what ultimately happens to Snoke. Hux fancies himself as a decisive and imposing commander in the vein of Grand Moff Tarkin, but Johnson narratively exposes him as a pretender by having Poe troll him and Snoke seemingly reprimand him, while Snoke demonstrates through his behavior that he fancies himself as a new Emperor and an 'heir', spirituality, to Palpatine/Sidious, only for Johnson to narratively expose him as a pretender by using him as merely a stepping stone for the ascension of Kylo Ren.
5) I've seen a lot of people online saying that the Canto Bight subplot ultimately makes no sense because it's a pointless mistake, but what has been viewed as a weakness is, ultimately, the narrative point of the sequence. Finn and Rose ultimately fail in their objective, which costs the Resistance dearly, because the point of their mission was ultimately inconsequential and based on misunderstanding.
People have also dinged Admiral Holdo's place in the story, but the same theme of "the price of failure" applies to her as well, especially since it became clear, to me anyway, that Poe is the only person who wasn't aware of what she was doing and that, in her efforts to help Leia teach him some humility, she ultimately failed and cost the Resistance dearly because her dismissal of Poe influenced his rash behavior and forced her into a situation where the only recourse was self-sacrifice.
7) "Where do we go from here?": By choosing to flip perceptions and create a film that is both quintessential Star Wars and yet like no other film in the franchise, Rian has actually created the perfect canvas for J.J. Abrams to paint on because the revelation of Rey literally being "no-one" and still choosing to fight evil, Luke letting himself become "one with the Force", Kylo Ren dispatching Snoke and "killing the past", and the film's final shot of Temiri Blagg (the stable slave from Canto Bight) using the Force and being inspired by both the "legend of Luke Skywalker" and his encounter with Finn and Rose play directly to the way J.J. views Star Wars, giving him a far more organic way to express that viewpoint than he had with The Force Awakens.
I've touched on this before, but I very firmly believe that a good chunk of the negative reaction people have had to The Last Jedi is predicated on perception and/or an inability to let go of the same.
I personally had some major misgivings about The Force Awakens and have only seen the film twice (the second time having been just this past Friday night), all predicated on my perception of J.J. Abrams' viewpoint on Star Wars versus my own, but what I came to realize, thanks in part to a couple of the hosts from the Full of Sith Podcast, is that I ultimately needed to let go of my perceptions and look deeper because the things from the franchise that I personally connect with, such as archetype, mythology, and echoing, are in fact part of TFA, even if they're not central to the way that Abrams connects with the franchise, ancd would like to suggest that those who have issues with The Last Jedi maybe consider the following:
1) J.J. Abrams, because of the way he views Star Wars, felt that explaining the history of the New Republic and the politics of the galaxy ran contrary to the nature of the franchise, unfortunately painting Rian, who has a much less rigid and stringent viewpoint on the franchise, into somewhat of a corner because, had he taken the time to try and explain the things that J.J. didnt, TLJ could have gotten bogged down, so what he opted to do instead was to run with Abrams' basic setup and, using his own viewpoint on the franchise, deconstruct the formula of Star Wars while simultaneously celebrating it, treating the history as if there was little of importance that occurred in the 30-year period between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens because, in truth, there was little of importance that happened during that time period, and only shedding light on those things that occurred in that timeframe that WERE important, such as the specific circumstances that led to Ben Solo's fall and Luke's reaction to it, both of which are events that occurred far closer to TFA and TLJ than many fans think, as per information from people like Pablo Hidalgo.
2) I've seen a lot of online discussion focused on J.J. Abrams' reputation as the "master of the mystery box", but, in looking back at the past two years, what ended up happening is that the perception of said reputation was ultimately just that, and most of the things that TFA seems to treat as mysteries to be solved aren't in fact all that mysterious.
Let's take Snoke, for example. All that TFA tells us, independent of all external expectations, is that he's Dark Side user who got to Ben Solo and influenced him to the point that he fell away from the Light Side. However, fans, based on a combination of Abrams' reputation and the perception of how Star Wars storytelling typically plays itself out, became convinced that there was more to his story than was actually communicated onscreen and in ancillary materials, despite the efforts of Pablo Hidalgo and others to communicate the fact that his backstory and the specific details thereof were not in fact all that important.
The same thing applies to Rey, although in her case, the gulf between perception/expectation and what was presented is even wider because TFA itself actually telegraphs and spells out the ultimate resolution of the 'mystery' regarding who she is as presented in The Last Jedi, which is, again, something that people directly involved in the making of the films attempted to communicate to the fandom, only to be met by resistance and/or flat-out denial and rejection based on J J. Abrams' reputation as the "mystery box guy".
3) A big thematic element of The Last Jedi, especially as it concerns Luke Skywalker's part in the story, is the idea of "learning the wrong lesson", but the concept also applies to the franchise as a whole and the way that Rian chooses to tell his story and progress forward from the conclusion of TFA because, ultimately, he uses TLJ's narrative to say to the fandom "you learned the wrong lesson" about how Star Wars narratives are handled. In his "first blush" reaction analysis of TLJ, Full of Sith Podcast host Bryan Young said that The Last Jedi is simultaneously quintessentially Star Wars and like no other Star Wars movie ever made, and he's right, because Rian takes everything that is absent from Abrams' viewpoint on Star Wars, acknowledges the way that much of the rest of the fandom views the frqnchise, and then flips the latter viewpoint on its ear.
4) Much has been made of how the plotline involving the First Order and the Resistance in TLJ is illogical and makes no tactical or strategic sense, but something that occurred to me after seeing the film is that its intent was to "expose the pretenders" on both sides of the conflict. Hux, Snoke, and the rest of the First Order are content to slowly pick off the Resistance because they view them as pretenders, which in turn exposes them as the pretenders to the 'legacy of the Empire' that they are because they don't take a more decisive tack in eliminating the Resistance.
This idea of "exposing the pretenders" also comes into play in regards to the characterization of Hux and what ultimately happens to Snoke. Hux fancies himself as a decisive and imposing commander in the vein of Grand Moff Tarkin, but Johnson narratively exposes him as a pretender by having Poe troll him and Snoke seemingly reprimand him, while Snoke demonstrates through his behavior that he fancies himself as a new Emperor and an 'heir', spirituality, to Palpatine/Sidious, only for Johnson to narratively expose him as a pretender by using him as merely a stepping stone for the ascension of Kylo Ren.
5) I've seen a lot of people online saying that the Canto Bight subplot ultimately makes no sense because it's a pointless mistake, but what has been viewed as a weakness is, ultimately, the narrative point of the sequence. Finn and Rose ultimately fail in their objective, which costs the Resistance dearly, because the point of their mission was ultimately inconsequential and based on misunderstanding.
People have also dinged Admiral Holdo's place in the story, but the same theme of "the price of failure" applies to her as well, especially since it became clear, to me anyway, that Poe is the only person who wasn't aware of what she was doing and that, in her efforts to help Leia teach him some humility, she ultimately failed and cost the Resistance dearly because her dismissal of Poe influenced his rash behavior and forced her into a situation where the only recourse was self-sacrifice.
7) "Where do we go from here?": By choosing to flip perceptions and create a film that is both quintessential Star Wars and yet like no other film in the franchise, Rian has actually created the perfect canvas for J.J. Abrams to paint on because the revelation of Rey literally being "no-one" and still choosing to fight evil, Luke letting himself become "one with the Force", Kylo Ren dispatching Snoke and "killing the past", and the film's final shot of Temiri Blagg (the stable slave from Canto Bight) using the Force and being inspired by both the "legend of Luke Skywalker" and his encounter with Finn and Rose play directly to the way J.J. views Star Wars, giving him a far more organic way to express that viewpoint than he had with The Force Awakens.
Digific Writer,
That was a well-written and reasoned piece. I don’t agree with your conclusions for the most part, but you provide a lot to ponder, and how to look at the film ‘from a certain point of view’ than some critical fans haven’t. I do particularly like your description of the First Order/Snoke as being pretenders. It’s something that I felt all along, and if that was Johnson’s intentions to expose them as such then that’s fine by me. However, he missed one with Kylo Ren. And your take on Admiral Holdo was pretty interesting. Most of the stuff I've read about her about how great she is or how right/wrong and how she was right/wrong to check Poe, and it was really more about Poe learning a lesson and not Holdo, so the idea that Holdo also had something to learn, had more of an arc, is an interesting idea.
That was a well-written and reasoned piece. I don’t agree with your conclusions for the most part, but you provide a lot to ponder, and how to look at the film ‘from a certain point of view’ than some critical fans haven’t. I do particularly like your description of the First Order/Snoke as being pretenders. It’s something that I felt all along, and if that was Johnson’s intentions to expose them as such then that’s fine by me. However, he missed one with Kylo Ren. And your take on Admiral Holdo was pretty interesting. Most of the stuff I've read about her about how great she is or how right/wrong and how she was right/wrong to check Poe, and it was really more about Poe learning a lesson and not Holdo, so the idea that Holdo also had something to learn, had more of an arc, is an interesting idea.
Last edited:
It's not so much that Holdo "had something to learn" so much as it is her part in Leia's plan to teach Poe some humility failing, ultimately, because she didn't adapt to his stubbornness.
^^^
Um, the plan would have worked fine (and Finn and the rest wouldn't have staged their mutiny) IF Leia or Admiral Dern HAD ACTUALLY TOLD THEM WHAT THEIR PLAN WAS.
^
This is another aspect I find ridiculous. The Resistence isn't a true miluitary, people are doing what they are doing because they beleive a free/republican society is better than tyranny. When said Resistance is so small and is such jeopardy it doesn't make sense to hold back plans (Unless you believe most of your leadership is actually First Order spies.)
Holdo and Leia thought Poe had the maturity, in spite of his impulsive nature, to learn the lessons they were trying to teach him without him "upsetting the apple cart", but they were wrong, which is why, as I noted above, that entire storyline is ultimately about the price of failure.
Variety was critical of the movie for being too reverential toward the SW franchise and legacy, and basically playing it safe and not really changing anything.
The more objective perspective of professional industry writers is certainly different from much of the hardcore fan feedback that's been online as of late.
Kor
The more objective perspective of professional industry writers is certainly different from much of the hardcore fan feedback that's been online as of late.
Kor
Last edited:
I think more than anything else, fans fear change. There were a lot of departures for the Star Wars "norm" and many fans didn't like it.
It wasn't just a departure, it was filmmaking's type of trolling. See this thing you really really want to happen? Well it's about to...... NO JUST KIDDING SOMETHING TOTALLY OPPOSITE WILL HAPPEN HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
A lot of it plays out like that to me. I actually liked being messed with this way, but I can see people taking it more seriously than I do being offended.
Yes, the night of TLJ releases all over the world I was glued to the audience reactions online and they were often perplexing. For example, how can the reviews in France claim the film took too many risks and the German reviews thought it didn't take any risks? It can't be both ways. The film either takes risks or it doesn't.
The fan reviews are often very steeped in emotional reactions - something you'd hope professional reviewers are able to keep in check.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't agree with the idea of her failing to adapt to his stubbornness. I could see it more of an issue of her failing to adapt to the situation or reading him correctly. She is the superior officer so the onus is not on her to do that, it's on Poe to follow her orders, but I don't know how professional the Resistance is as a military organization that would have a strong chain of command. Poe showed that he even wouldn't always take Leia's orders, even though he respects her, at least a whole lot more than he did Holdo. I think both Holdo and Poe made mistakes, they both misread each other and made costly mistakes.
I think this very well could be the case. I also think that the estimation of TLJ will change when Episode IX comes out. And I also think 30 years from now, once the Disney hold on Disney is complete and is just simply Star Wars, you’ll have the ‘old’ fans of that time being the people who grew up on the sequel trilogy, and they’ll probably look back on all this and shake their heads. That being said, I don’t think however history comes to regard this film that how people who feel about it now should be discounted. The Generation 1 fans will have a perspective that future fans won’t and so their criticism or praise for TLJ is valid, even if it will likely become muted over time or TLJ will be reassessed over time.
Everything that Holdo does up until she sacrifices herself was designed, by both Leia and herself, to teach Poe some humility based on a belief that, in spite of his impulsiveness, he would have the maturity to follow orders and not strike out on his own, and when that belief was proven wrong, she should've taken more drastic measures to teach him the lesson Leia wanted him to learn, which is why she's ultimately forced into making the self-sacrificial decision she makes.
That's where she ultimately fails.
That's where she ultimately fails.
This might be exactly what the point of the film was...to end the fanbase's leaning on the old EU for support of what happens to the Heroes of Yavin. Everything you thought you knew about the heroes was wrong because it was based on Legends. That's one of the messages being presented in the film by Luke Skywalker himself. While there is some truth in legends (harkening back to Ahsoka in Rebels), it is no always how things happened.
As for Vice Admiral Holdo and her choice not fill people in on what is happening, that might have been because of Finn. While he rejected the First Order and went to Starkiller Base, his loyalty is not known. He is actually only looking out for Rey at this point, so their is some justification for not wanting him to know what is happening, because he could be a First Order plant, or have a tracking device on him somewhere. He and Rose slip out without the Admiral knowing about it at first, and later things get worse as Poe tries to cover for their mission that the Admiral wasn't told about. That lack of trust from Poe and Holdo keep the full escape plan from being brought out. And when Poe does get told about the plan, he tells Finn about it over an open comlink to his droid while their are onboard the First Order flagship. BB-8 is actually the reason the plan to take out the tracking device failed. His disguise was terrible and he was spotted. He's why "DJ" came to help, and why "DJ" knew what the Resistance plan was. "DJ", to escape execution, sold the Resistance out, and made a profit doing so, though we don't know if he survived Holdo impact of light and cruiser.
That’s not how I saw the Holdo and Poe exchange. I saw it not so much as Holdo teaching Poe as lesson as asserting her authority. Poe was impulsive and reckless and she knew she had to pull his card immediately to keep him in line. The point was she pulled his chain too hard IMO which prompted him to first undermine her authority by agreeing to Finn and Rose’s mission and then to pull a mutiny. Granted, Leia and Holdo are old friends, and Leia has a kind of maternalistic relationship with Poe, but I didn’t sense that extended to how Holdo herself felt about Poe. If anything she voiced displeasure at his ‘type’ of soldiering early on, though later on, in her final talk with Leia, she does say she likes him. (That part could indicate that Holdo saw herself as instructing him on some level, but to me that’s open to interpretation).
While Johnson was subverting fans expectations, I think he was doing that based on the films and not the EU. The EU had been tossed out several years ago and a new canon installed. While there is doubtless grumbling over that still-I miss the EU (though the Marvel comics aren’t bad, I still haven’t really gotten into the canon novels)-I don’t think there is a groundswell of anger anymore about the EU. That’s not what I think is driving fan angst. The vast majority of fans didn’t even read EU novels or comics.
Not everything people thought they knew was based on Legends material, or solely on Legends material. A great deal of it was based on the films. The original films introduced the characters to many and the original films established the character traits and flaws, defined the heroes in ways that even the EU mostly stayed true and just carried forward. Though there are similarities to Jacen Solo, Ben Solo is different, as is Rey and Jaina, so I don’t think there is a disappointment that they didn’t get the sequel characters ‘right’ in comparison to the EU source material. For me, I just think the EU did it better in many respects. So if you are going to borrow or be inspired by the EU at least do as well or better than what those novels and comics did.
As for Holdo, I hadn’t considered Finn playing a role in her decisions. I don’t agree though with your take. I think your take on it is interesting and sounds logical, but we see from when Rose meets Finn that Finn is considered a Resistance hero. Even he was surprised by that. I think it’s right after that that he walks right into the command center and starts asking questions like he belongs there. And we never see them put him under guard or have anyone watching him. Finn is an accepted, and valued member, of the Resistance at this point. I wish we had seen the Resistance treating him with more suspicion. That could’ve been another impetus for him to leave and seek out his own way.
But the idea that Holdo might not trust Poe due to his closeness to Finn is a good idea, but one that I didn’t see evidenced in the film.
Last edited:
No, it's not today's ESB by any stretch of the imagination. I was there to experience the 1980 reactions to the film, and although there were a few mixed reviews, there was much talk about how it was such great growth to the overall story and characters, and not just a repeat of the first film (the general perception of endless sequels, like the then-recent Jaws 2). At the time, the film's effect moved audiences and many critics to first refer to the Star Wars concept as a "saga", which the average movie sequel did not inspire, with the exception of The Godfather II. That's not TLJ, which is a scattered product not born of a deep creative storytelling need, but to continue a franchise and sell sociopolitical messages. There's no heartfelt story challenging characters and truly lifting the story in grand, mythical fashion at all.
Last edited:
So instead of referencing the provable existence of ESB’s many mixed reviews, we should rely on your anecdote about your memories from 30 years ago? That sounds...reliable.
Look man. The scripting has never exactly been the franchise strong point, they were always produced with the intent of financial success, if you want production to be purely driven by ‘deep storytelling need’ then you shouldn’t hitch your fandom to franchises, and you’re taking all the jabs at the Bush administration way to personally.
....Wait, which ‘ruined the franchise’ Star Wars movie are we talking about again?
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Poll
