Ash Tyler seems to have already taken that title from Worf.
Spoilers marsh8472's Consolidated Continuity Thread
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Ash Tyler seems to have already taken that title from Worf.
And they choose to do it anyway, deliberately, for a purpose bigger than themselves. Why can't L'Rell do the same? It's been obvious since episode 4 that she has a plan. Do you need her to turn to the camera and literally say "I am doing this despite the fact that other Klingons would consider it a dishonor if they found out"?
Being hopeful of escape or thinking they can fight an enemy exonerates them from being dishonoured by the high council. All they would have to do is say they were hopeful that they could kill an enemy or escape and then there's no problem.
I wonder if there would be any motivation for L'Rell to worry about her honor. She comes from a clan of spies - she does dishonorable things for a living. And even if she didn't, she'd still be birthmarked as dishonorable, until she killed enough of her clansmen and denounced her House and allowed at least seven of her limbs to be gloriously cut off in combat.
In any case, this "getting captured is dishonorable" shit is merely the standard soldier thing: "if you don't try to escape and get back to fight for our side, we'll execute you for treason". Otherwise, all soldiers would just opt to surrender and spend the rest of the war safely in a prison camp.
Timo Saloniemi
In any case, this "getting captured is dishonorable" shit is merely the standard soldier thing: "if you don't try to escape and get back to fight for our side, we'll execute you for treason". Otherwise, all soldiers would just opt to surrender and spend the rest of the war safely in a prison camp.
Timo Saloniemi
Yea if a Klingon is captured but does nothing to try to escape but then gets out anyway he has the choice of being honest dishonouring himself and his entire family or he could just lie and say he was hopeful to escape or that there was still an enemy to fight. That's a toughy
Fun factoid, based just on my personal experience and memory:
For years—nay, decades—from TNG onward the single most frequently-raised fan complaint regarding Klingons wasn't anything to do with foreheads; rather it was that they were coming to be portrayed as too much of a monoculture, every one of them an oafish brute in armored furs prattling on about honor and battle and waving their bat'leths around while swigging blood wine. Where was the depth and nuance and complexity? The deviation from and expansion beyond those Worf-inspired stereotypes was one of the most-praised aspects of stories like The Undiscovered Country and "Judgment" (ENT). But that must all have been in some parallel universe, I guess.
-MMoM
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It's a bit more nuanced than that. Worf and Martok actually escaped, they weren't rescued, so they are good to go. Only Klingons that were captured and were released after the end of the war would be dishonoured. Rescued Klingons probably fall under the hope for escape clause as well.
VIXIS: One of the hostages is a Klingon.
KLAA: No Klingon would willingly remain a hostage! Why didn't he kill himself? He has gravely dishonored himself and his entire house! We will definitely not go get him, and I will definitely never acknowledge or take orders from him!
KLAA: No Klingon would willingly remain a hostage! Why didn't he kill himself? He has gravely dishonored himself and his entire house! We will definitely not go get him, and I will definitely never acknowledge or take orders from him!
But "rules" don't mean that every member of the same species has to act or think the same way, to the same degree. Look at real life: some people are more honorable than others, some are more religious or idealistic than others, some are more conservative or liberal or more trustworthy or hypocritical. That some Klingons are stricter about the "honor" thing than others is not a continuity error; it's just characterization. They're not supposed to be homogeneous, cookie-cutter clones without any individuality.
Some Klingons are all about honorable combat; others poison grain supplies. Some want peace with the Federation hi, Gorkon); some want war (hi, Chang.). To paraphrase Walt Whitman:
Do Klingons contradict themselves? Very well, they contradict themselves. They are an Empire; they contain multitudes.
That the Klingons even have a judicial system (and a whole prison planet to go along with it, even if there seem to be more "alien" inmates than Klingon ones) is pretty damned good indication that "Klingons don't allow themselves to be taken prisoner" isn't a universal sentiment, that's for sure.
I'm thinking about starting a parallel thread to this one called "Klingons Don't Take Prisoners!" to discredit Discovery's Klingons taking Starfleet prisoners, all based on Kirk's admonition to Lt. Saavik in TWoK after the Kobayashi Maru test. Then I'll defend that position ad nauseam despite Kirk himself and his crew being taken prisoner by Kang in Day of the Dove, and Kirk and McCoy later being sent to a penal asteroid in ST:VI, and Kruge wanting prisoners from the USS Grissom and later taking Spock, Saavik, and David prisoner in ST:III, and countless other examples of Klingons taking prisoners that are obviously completely meaningless in comparison to Kirk's remark.
Or I can just roll with the idea that the Klingon code of honor are more like guidelines than actual rules, much like pirates and parlay. An ideal to strive for (as twisted as it may seem to us) which is rarely lived up to by most Klingons.
Or I can just roll with the idea that the Klingon code of honor are more like guidelines than actual rules, much like pirates and parlay. An ideal to strive for (as twisted as it may seem to us) which is rarely lived up to by most Klingons.
We're not talking about a single remark in this case. There are entire episodes devoted to this idea. Being taken prisoner resulting in family dishonour for 3 generations sounds more like a rule than a guideline to me. We don't need to trash Worf's knowledge of Klingons to defend L'Rell's actions either.
That's where Tuvok was born, isn't it? It really traumatized him. That's why his inner thoughts are so dark and violent, even though Vulcans aren't supposed to have emotions. Unless he was lying...
Look, we're talking about L'Rell, right? Pretty sure spies and intelligence agencies, be they human or Klingon, are not averse to employing "dishonorable" methods to achieve their ends. Hell, that's practically their job description. So we're shocked when a Klingon from a clan specializing in espionage doesn't play by the "rules" or act like a stereotypical Klingon warrior?
Next you'll be telling me that CIA agents strictly obey the Ten Commandments at all times . .. .
Next you'll be telling me that CIA agents strictly obey the Ten Commandments at all times . .. .
Yes and she was already regarded as a criminal by some Klingon's already. But if this is treated like normal Klingon behavior later by the show then we could also talk about whether this is yet another retcon of Klingon culture. We don't know that yet, but it looks like the fanon is saying it is and are throwing Worf along with other Klingons under the bus alreadyLook, we're talking about L'Rell, right? Pretty sure spies and intelligence agencies, be they human or Klingon, are not averse to employing "dishonorable" methods to achieve their ends. Hell, that's practically their job description. So we're shocked when a Klingon from a clan specializing in espionage doesn't play by the "rules" or act like a stereotypical Klingon warrior?
Next you'll be telling me that CIA agents strictly obey the Ten Commandments at all times . .. .
They couldn't help themselves
The Klingons in TOS and the movies already weren't like that. The stuff you're talking about was the "retcon of Klingon culture" in the first place.But if this is treated like normal Klingon behavior later by the show then we could also talk about whether this is yet another retcon of Klingon culture. We don't know that yet, but it looks like the fanon is saying it is and are throwing Worf along with other Klingons under the bus already
Yep. The whole "honor is everything" non-sense was a retcon by TNG.
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