Domination by humans over Klingons in hand to hand combat
- Thread starter James T Kirk
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Stupidest thing ever in this regard, was T'Pol giving the crew 5 minutes of 'Vulcan martial arts training', and them then beating a squad of Klingon warriors hand-to-hand.
Ever accosted by a bully? Easy! Bend backward, bend backward, then roll away.
The Japanese in the 1930s were a fearsome and fierce warrior race. They won many fights against opponents who had weapons of more or less identical quality and often greater quantity. On the average, they were physically inferior to their average opponent, though (even if ever-so-slightly): they came from a race of relatively short people and typically suffered from a degree of malnutrition affecting their entire generation.
Why did the Japanese triumph? Thanks to the warrior fierceness for the most part: while some of their opponents were equally accustomed to being barely fed above survival limit and making long transits without the benefit of shelter or transportation, they weren't fanatically devoted to it (their militaries hadn't been downscaled a decade earlier, with the deluge of retired soldiers sent to thoroughly militarize the rest of the population at both grassroots and government level).
The Klingons are indoctrinated fanatics, too. Their fierceness takes many familiar forms such as utter contempt of the opponent, great for demoralizing the enemy in advance. In starship-to-starship fighting, the odds are even, but Klingons love to go beyond that and enjoy their edge.
It really doesn't take great bodily strength to get and maintain the reputation, and the opposite might in fact work in favor of the Klingons in war if they consume less thanks to their slighter physique...
Timo Saloniemi
Why did the Japanese triumph? Thanks to the warrior fierceness for the most part: while some of their opponents were equally accustomed to being barely fed above survival limit and making long transits without the benefit of shelter or transportation, they weren't fanatically devoted to it (their militaries hadn't been downscaled a decade earlier, with the deluge of retired soldiers sent to thoroughly militarize the rest of the population at both grassroots and government level).
The Klingons are indoctrinated fanatics, too. Their fierceness takes many familiar forms such as utter contempt of the opponent, great for demoralizing the enemy in advance. In starship-to-starship fighting, the odds are even, but Klingons love to go beyond that and enjoy their edge.
It really doesn't take great bodily strength to get and maintain the reputation, and the opposite might in fact work in favor of the Klingons in war if they consume less thanks to their slighter physique...
Timo Saloniemi
Mok'bara, a Klingon martial arts form similar to Terran Tai Chi Chuan, which, contrary to popular belief, is definitely a martial arts system.
Kor
Not true. Reposting what I said on the subject last year:
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I have to disagree with that. Worf lifts and throws an adult male human with one arm pretty effortlessly in 'Let He Who Is Without Sin...' That really didn't look like something even a strong human could do. (And yes, I know that it is possible to lift a person with one arm, but not like that.) Kruge also lifts Kirk pretty easily in ST III, albeit he uses both arms. In'Take Me Out to the Holosuite' Sisko seems to think Worf might be as strong as a Vulcan, who are known for their super strength. In 'Blood Fever' Torres fights Vorik and wins (albeit it still seems that Vorik might be physically slightly stronger.) I recall that in one episode Harry Kim says something about having wanted to be 'strong as a Klingon' as a kid (I couldn't the find reference for that, though, so I might be imagining it...)
I think there is indeed some evidence for superior Klingon strength. I don't think they're as strong as Vulcans, who most of the time seem to overpower humans with laughable ease (ENT being an exception here, they seemed to have forgotten the Vulcan super strength for most of the show), but still stronger than humans. (Worf may be as strong as an average Vulcan as he is really strong Klingon, or maybe Sisko was just being overly optimistic.)
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That human characters often triumph over Klingons is mainly due the main character combat bonus.
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Lorca is just a pimp, like Sisko.
I'll have a problem if it becomes regular, I was kind of disappointed to see Klingons getting smacked around again since it happens so often on Trek, even though they're supposed to be physically superior to humans. I can look past it when Lorca does it I guess, but I don't want to see Stamets or Saru beating them up in future episodes.
I wouldn't mind seeing Michael reminded she isn't a Vulcan and getting smacked across the room by one, I really disliked in DS9 when Kira was managing to take on Klingons in hand to hand in Way of the Warrior, Dax at least he decades of experience with a Batleth and Klingons themselves.
Just seems to me their supposed physical superiority is a myth, they probably have stronger bone structure or a better cardio system or some shit, but they rarely ever show themselves to have 2 or 3 times the strength of humans.
I'll have a problem if it becomes regular, I was kind of disappointed to see Klingons getting smacked around again since it happens so often on Trek, even though they're supposed to be physically superior to humans. I can look past it when Lorca does it I guess, but I don't want to see Stamets or Saru beating them up in future episodes.
I wouldn't mind seeing Michael reminded she isn't a Vulcan and getting smacked across the room by one, I really disliked in DS9 when Kira was managing to take on Klingons in hand to hand in Way of the Warrior, Dax at least he decades of experience with a Batleth and Klingons themselves.
Just seems to me their supposed physical superiority is a myth, they probably have stronger bone structure or a better cardio system or some shit, but they rarely ever show themselves to have 2 or 3 times the strength of humans.
What I said was that nobody in the Trek universe actually claims the Klingons would be strong.
They may be, and there may be evidence for it, but the thing is, nobody says so. In-universe, the Klingons don't have a reputation of being physically strong.
Really, there's only one reference to "Klingon strength" I could find in the transcripts, and that's to strength of will in "Icarus Factor". In "Take Me In the Holosuite", Worf is compared to Bashir on the issue of Vulcans being "stronger and faster" - perhaps Worf is fast?
Timo Saloniemi
Sisko does. (Yes, that's what he means.)
Why pretend that we can divine that when Worf has never bested a Vulcan(oid) in wrestling? Heck, his demonstrated physical strength is the weakest part of the claim that Klingons would be strong, compared to, say, humans or Trill.
The concept of "the famous Klingon strength" is a fan myth rather than an in-universe phenomenon. If Klingons are strong, then this either goes without saying or is unknown to our heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
The concept of "the famous Klingon strength" is a fan myth rather than an in-universe phenomenon. If Klingons are strong, then this either goes without saying or is unknown to our heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
You're just ignoring the evidence. Sisko think Worf is strong, we've seen Worf being strong. What more do you need?
Klingons in general to be depicted as being strong, which they aren't.
Worf is shown (especially in DS9) to be beefier than the average Klingon.
You disliked the idea of a trained soldier, who spent most of her life fighting in an insurgency, holding her own when faced with combat for like the 2,457th time?
TBH, I wouldn't put money on either side in a fight between Kira and Worf, at least if it's no holds barred. She's a grizzled veteran who knows how to fight dirty.
Never under estimate Waif-Fu.
She was a terrorist who used ambushes, hit and run etc. But she is still a woman almost effortlessly beating up a Klingon who weighs a lot more than her and is a lot stronger. It isn't about experience, just pure raw strength. At least it isn't as bad as Uhura hand to handing the aliens in Beyond.
I don't think the problem is people who're physically weaker beating opponents who are physically stronger. This can happen, especially if the weaker person is very skilled or just very lucky. It is just that the combat choreography often fails to depict the difference between raw strength, skill and luck.
If a Klingon warrior loses a battle against a Bajoran teen, just think that Klingons are warriors and all that among themselves, maybe not against other species.
Boxing is a sport. There's a playing field and rules of conduct all designed to promote a certain kind of play style and outcome. It's not a street fight.
Definitely this.
It's nice that we get a fair evaluation of raw strength in the combat choreography, then. Klingons, Jem'Hadar and humans can compare their physical strength in that most equitable of sports: bayonet wrestling. You know, the uniquely Hollywood game in which two sides equipped with long-reaching heavy blades gently press these against each other and then use raw strength to try and push the combination against the throat of the opponent?
Neither Klingons nor Jem'Hadar are strong. Both lose this game to humans just as often as not. There's no room for skill in the game, no role played by training. It's just a combination of muscular strength from the arms, the upper body, the back and the legs. And thus we have our non-winners.
(Worf again is a poster child for Klingon weakness, failing to bayonet wrestle the frail Jadzia Dax to the ground, but here we can argue he has his reasons...)
Timo Saloniemi
Neither Klingons nor Jem'Hadar are strong. Both lose this game to humans just as often as not. There's no room for skill in the game, no role played by training. It's just a combination of muscular strength from the arms, the upper body, the back and the legs. And thus we have our non-winners.
(Worf again is a poster child for Klingon weakness, failing to bayonet wrestle the frail Jadzia Dax to the ground, but here we can argue he has his reasons...)
Timo Saloniemi
Because "warrior race" doesn't necessarily translate into "best at fighting". "Warrior race" refers to Klingons having a general preference for using violence as the primary means of interaction among themselves and other races. It in no way infers they are superior warriors to members of other races.
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