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Lorca is a coward and murderer, how come he's a Starfleet Captain still??

It's applying a double standard. To give Lorca the benefit of the doubt after hearing the words of the account from his own mouth - an allowing there is more to be told. Yet do we really know Mudd's whole story? One person is given the benefit of the doubt because he is 'liked' the other isn't.

I saw enough of Mudds story to know that Lorca was right to keep him in Klingon prison. But my sympathies could change towards Mudd when he shows up again and is fleshed out more. Lorca on the other hand has the loyalty of the Discovery crew, the incident on the buran has never been mentioned before not even in passing by crew members on the discovery and he apparently has the backing of starfleet. Also the way he spoke about losing his crew indicated to me that there was a lot of pain there so I don't think we are being told the entire truth about what happened.
 
Lorca followed Starfleet regulations in leaving Mudd behind. Mudd had broken Klingon law in order to be a prisoner on the ship, rather than being a prisoner of war like the Starfleet officers. If he broke Klingon law, than that falls under the Prime Directive and Lorca should not interfere with another cultures laws, especially when he himself just entered into the situation, rather than it having happened on his watch with his crewmembers.
 
Lorca followed Starfleet regulations in leaving Mudd behind. Mudd had broken Klingon law in order to be a prisoner on the ship, rather than being a prisoner of war like the Starfleet officers. If he broke Klingon law, than that falls under the Prime Directive and Lorca should not interfere with another cultures laws, especially when he himself just entered into the situation, rather than it having happened on his watch with his crewmembers.
The Federation is respecting Klingon law? Yeah..
 
Considering how much stuff Worf would have gotten into serious trouble doing what he did if he hadn't been allowed to be following Klingon law, than yeah....Sometimes the Federation does stick to its ideals even if they don't agree with the outcomes.
 
To me the yardstick is the current time frame. I'm analysing the Federation that Discovery is set in. When the preamble about this show was introduced it spoke of war, of the Prime Directive, of ten years before Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise. I find it interesting to see the values that were represented by a Lorca or a Georgiou. To fathom that Starfleet booby trapped the dead, that a Captain killed his crew and escaped the same fate. That Starfleet in fighting Klingon monsters abuse alien life forms, abandon prisoners to an unknown fate, and essentially uphold the kind of selective morality that the enemy does.
Instead of reposting what I said earlier in another thread - I'll just give a link:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/sta...choose-your-pain.290638/page-52#post-12214304

[TLDR: It's NO DIFFERENT in Kirk's era - go rewatch TOS - "A Taste of Armageddon" and pay attention when Kirk orders Mr. Scott to carry out Star Fleet General Order 24...]
 
Part of the consideration is that Discovery is placed before many comparisons that happened later. I'm not suggesting that other scenarios did not occur in the years after the events of the Discovery years we are seeing and are going to see. In fact the repercussions of decisions and choices made by Starfleet and its Officers 'Discovery time' could very well be used to justify or smokescreen future instances. This show was presented as depicting war and Starfleet/Federation principles or lack thereof. I'm not even sure that finding a parallel example (and that in itself is difficult), of something also questionable addresses Lorca's situation. It doesn't justify it or cancel it out.
 
I haven't read all the pages so forgive me if in trodding upon a point that's already been raised or satisfactorly answered. Now that being said....I feel like the majority of the people who are having trouble with the shows characters are those who don't really watch serialized tv. Imagine trying to judge.....to trying to figure what kind of character Tony Soprano, Don Draper, Walter White or Jaime Lannister is after five episodes? That would be laughable. Go watch the first episode that character is in and the last, and tell me how that looks. These are characters that start as mysteries, we get to know them a bit more over time and as they are revealed they also evolve, it's a difficult dance. Often time the show ends with the character still being a mystery! Its not like tos where all the bridge crew are wholly fully formed characters from the get go. The last time you see them are they different? Yeah, but insofar as natural changes over the course of time. Not like the perpetual mystery box that is modern characters
 
I haven't read all the pages so forgive me if in trodding upon a point that's already been raised or satisfactorly answered. Now that being said....I feel like the majority of the people who are having trouble with the shows characters are those who don't really watch serialized tv. Imagine trying to judge.....to trying to figure what kind of character Tony Soprano, Don Draper, Walter White or Jaime Lannister is after five episodes? That would be laughable. Go watch the first episode that character is in and the last, and tell me how that looks. These are characters that start as mysteries, we get to know them a bit more over time and as they are revealed they also evolve, it's a difficult dance. Often time the show ends with the character still being a mystery! Its not like tos where all the bridge crew are wholly fully formed characters from the get go. The last time you see them are they different? Yeah, but insofar as natural changes over the course of time. Not like the perpetual mystery box that is modern characters
I don't know about that. I've watched a lot of TV myself. There are many intuitive, articulate and analytical posters here, who have a genuine appreciation for story and how its crafted. It isn't about being unable to appreciate how a character can evolve and a story unfold. You go into it aware of this. In fact if it is a question of having trouble regards the show's characters then all we can go on at any given point is what the production gives us. Short of there being no comments or reflections on an episode made, we would have to wait when to evaluate the state of play? End of season? A year?

The 'character' of the characters.. How he or she has been used to create a story is half of it, and what he or she *is* is the other. If the writers give us a Federation/Starfleet universe with mean-arsed Klingons who eat their enemies and speak in gutteral subtitles then that is what they want us to 'get'. If they show Starfleet abandoning a ship here, blowing up one there, or is that two, have a giant spore sucking critter making a ship spin and jump then that's the product. Lorca as presented IS a Captain of the USS Discovery. He's damaged and not just his eyes. He is capable of compartmentalising and being cruel. He said he killed a previous crew, lost his ship, suffered ultimate defeat but lived to tell this tale. He left albeit a not nice one, but another human being in the hands of a brutal enemy the Federation is at war with. A Starfleet officer is blamed for starting the war and for mutiny but is not imprisoned. Did I mention the booby trap in the dead body thing?

If people want to judge this, it's kind of.. natural.
 
They have fifteen episodes to tell the entire story that has been charted out. "Slow burn" is for chumps in this instance.

You mean one story plus numerous subplots. How many are we looking at so far? More than 10 for only five episodes? Given that trend, will there be an additional 20 by the time we're through with the season, or are writers simply overexcited?

Chumps? The purpose of a slow burn is not to make fools out of viewers but to make sure that stories and characterization are developed sufficiently.
 
I don't know about that. I've watched a lot of TV myself. There are many intuitive, articulate and analytical posters here, who have a genuine appreciation for story and how its crafted. It isn't about being unable to appreciate how a character can evolve and a story unfold. You go into it aware of this. In fact if it is a question of having trouble regards the show's characters then all we can go on at any given point is what the production gives us. Short of there being no comments or reflections on an episode made, we would have to wait when to evaluate the state of play? End of season? A year?

The 'character' of the characters.. How he or she has been used to create a story is half of it, and what he or she *is* is the other. If the writers give us a Federation/Starfleet universe with mean-arsed Klingons who eat their enemies and speak in gutteral subtitles then that is what they want us to 'get'. If they show Starfleet abandoning a ship here, blowing up one there, or is that two, have a giant spore sucking critter making a ship spin and jump then that's the product. Lorca as presented IS a Captain of the USS Discovery. He's damaged and not just his eyes. He is capable of compartmentalising and being cruel. He said he killed a previous crew, lost his ship, suffered ultimate defeat but lived to tell this tale. He left albeit a not nice one, but another human being in the hands of a brutal enemy the Federation is at war with. A Starfleet officer is blamed for starting the war and for mutiny but is not imprisoned. Did I mention the booby trap in the dead body thing?

If people want to judge this, it's kind of.. natural.

Making sense of a TV show and it's characters can sometimes be an incredibly complicated task particularly with a series that is using the format of Discovery. We aren't given all the answers at the end of the episode hence people are going to make their own assumptions and opinions based on any number of factors until proven otherwise. It's understandable that many people will take issue with some of the actions the characters make in Discovery, especially in light of what we see in other Star Trek series.

Maybe the point of the story at the moment is that we are not supposed to like this starfleet. The Starfleet we are seeing is one that we haven't really seen before. As far as we know, Starfleet hasn't been in a conflict with another power since the Romulan War. They are clearly unprepared for a war with the Klingons, and the Federation is apparently losing the war. They are getting desperate and starting to make desperate decisions. The way starfleet is acting is similar to how some real world powers have reacted to similar scenarios. I'm not saying that these decisions are right, but it makes them understandable. I think this whole story arc will be about how a civilisations morals and ethics and values survive threats to its existence. For me that means, seeing people fall and then being given the opportunity to make the right choices and better themselves. Captain Georgiou is representative of the Starfleet values we all hold dear, Lorca is the polar opposite of that. There is a purpose for this beyond it being edgy and cool, to have a jerk captain. Sarek says in the second episode that Georgiou was someone who had lost everything and maintained hope, I think Lorca is the other side. He's someone who has lost everything and lost hope as well.

We don't know exactly what happened on Lorca's last command. I think the way that he speaks about the incident has some hints as to how it played out and that hsi survival was probably not his choice. The way that Lorca says 'Not my Crew, Not on my watch' when talking about trying to prevent them from being captured suggest that he felt a great deal of responsibility for those under his command. Nothing about Lorca's behaviour suggests to me that he is a coward or would value his own life above that of his crew. He knew how Klingon's tortured their captives but showed zero fear when actually faced with it himself. He didn't buckle under the pressure of the situation but formulated a plan to escape and whilst he left mudd behind, he made sure to take a starfleet officer who may or may not be a Klingon spy, even though Lorca suspected this himself. I get the impression that Lorca is dealing with survivor's guilt and this may be influencing his decision making. I agree with you that Lorca is a damaged man and I think he compartmentalises it hides behind a cold seemingly callous exterior.

We've never seen this level of moral ambiguity or complication in main characters in a star trek series before. It takes a lot of getting used to, but i feel like at the end of this season we'll be able to look back and hopefully say, 'this was star trek'
 
Making sense of a TV show and it's characters can sometimes be an incredibly complicated task particularly with a series that is using the format of Discovery. We aren't given all the answers at the end of the episode hence people are going to make their own assumptions and opinions based on any number of factors until proven otherwise. It's understandable that many people will take issue with some of the actions the characters make in Discovery, especially in light of what we see in other Star Trek series.

Maybe the point of the story at the moment is that we are not supposed to like this starfleet. The Starfleet we are seeing is one that we haven't really seen before. As far as we know, Starfleet hasn't been in a conflict with another power since the Romulan War. They are clearly unprepared for a war with the Klingons, and the Federation is apparently losing the war. They are getting desperate and starting to make desperate decisions. The way starfleet is acting is similar to how some real world powers have reacted to similar scenarios. I'm not saying that these decisions are right, but it makes them understandable. I think this whole story arc will be about how a civilisations morals and ethics and values survive threats to its existence. For me that means, seeing people fall and then being given the opportunity to make the right choices and better themselves. Captain Georgiou is representative of the Starfleet values we all hold dear, Lorca is the polar opposite of that. There is a purpose for this beyond it being edgy and cool, to have a jerk captain. Sarek says in the second episode that Georgiou was someone who had lost everything and maintained hope, I think Lorca is the other side. He's someone who has lost everything and lost hope as well.

We don't know exactly what happened on Lorca's last command. I think the way that he speaks about the incident has some hints as to how it played out and that hsi survival was probably not his choice. The way that Lorca says 'Not my Crew, Not on my watch' when talking about trying to prevent them from being captured suggest that he felt a great deal of responsibility for those under his command. Nothing about Lorca's behaviour suggests to me that he is a coward or would value his own life above that of his crew. He knew how Klingon's tortured their captives but showed zero fear when actually faced with it himself. He didn't buckle under the pressure of the situation but formulated a plan to escape and whilst he left mudd behind, he made sure to take a starfleet officer who may or may not be a Klingon spy, even though Lorca suspected this himself. I get the impression that Lorca is dealing with survivor's guilt and this may be influencing his decision making. I agree with you that Lorca is a damaged man and I think he compartmentalises it hides behind a cold seemingly callous exterior.

We've never seen this level of moral ambiguity or complication in main characters in a star trek series before. It takes a lot of getting used to, but i feel like at the end of this season we'll be able to look back and hopefully say, 'this was star trek'

Great post. Sums up my thoughts precisely.

This is why Lorca is one of the best characters in the entire franchise, thus far.
 
His one-dimension is intense all right.

Sorry you can't enjoy it the way I do.

Unfortunately, though, your post makes no sense. Lorca is one of the few truly multi-dimensional characters ever presented in the franchise.

You don't have to like him. You can pine for Picard and Janeway. All that is fine and reasonable. But rationalizing your feelings by saying the character of Lorca is "one dimensional" is absurd.

There's a massive difference between "I don't like the character" and "this is a bad character".

It is about as obtuse and bias-driven as me saying "TNG was a morally superior, pompous, one dimensional show that had the maturity in addressing issues as a Tuesday After School Kids Special" when we all know that that wasn't always true and the episodes varied in tone and structure more than that.
 
He is one-dimensional to me. Put a black hat on him. He's both poorly written and what IS left and presented is one note, baddy.
 
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