In the original series, Kirk abandoned Mudd on a planet full of robot Stellas, which Mudd described himself as torture. So if Lorca's actions toward Mudd were a "war crime", then were Kirk's actions immoral as well?
Lorca is a coward and murderer, how come he's a Starfleet Captain still??
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To me the yardstick is the current time frame. I'm analysing the Federation that Discovery is set in. When the preamble about this show was introduced it spoke of war, of the Prime Directive, of ten years before Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise. I find it interesting to see the values that were represented by a Lorca or a Georgiou. To fathom that Starfleet booby trapped the dead, that a Captain killed his crew and escaped the same fate. That Starfleet in fighting Klingon monsters abuse alien life forms, abandon prisoners to an unknown fate, and essentially uphold the kind of selective morality that the enemy does.
"Klingon monsters"? My goodness, that is not very multicultural of you. Someone will need to send you to a Klingon sensitivity training seminar. The TNG zealots always tell me that all cultures are of equal value. If you consider the Klingons to be "monsters", then you must be a warmonger.
How is this much different than the admiral on the Europa ordering the self destruct killing the crew of that ship? It also prevented their capture. As Lorca stated context is king. That's doubly so in war. These Klingons obviously have no honor and would torture and kill all of them. We still need more details but I can feel some sympathy for what he did.
This is great. I don't remember these types of arguments since the end of BSG. Keep them coming!
This! The Discovery team wanted heated debate about the motivations, character, morals and actions of the crew members of this show and we are seeing it. I like wrestling with these questions and enjoying the fireworks it's causing. I'm withholding judgement on Lorca until I see more. We have a ways to go to understand him.
To play devil's advocate for a moment, Mudd can stay where he is. He was willingly getting information out of imprisoned starfleet officers that could have been used against the federation and he was only too happy to allow who knows how many starfleet officers get beaten to death so he wouldn't. Sacrificing someone else's life so that you can survive is wrong. Passing on information to the enemy so you can have a higher status than other prisoners is wrong. Mudd doesn't deserve to be saved by starfleet officers he was condemning earlier in the episode, especially considering how many starfleet officers died for him.
In the pilot that cloaked Klingon ship rammed the Europa. They self destructed to take out that Klingon ship and their own in the process.
Lorca was not being vindictive. He simply recognized that releasing a quisling would be suicidal.
He got arrested for being in Klingon space so the klingons can deal with him. I wouldn't be dragging him through a hostile ship, hoping he won't betray me to the klingons if he felt it was convenient. Screw that guy.
That doesn't make sense. If Mudd was inclined to betray Lorca and Tyler during an escape from the Klingons who had imprisoned him as well, then that would mean he would also be prepared to remain.. captive. Mudd wanted out.
Mudd was trying to survive but whatever type of human being he was, he should have been shown some kind of Federation mercy. There was nothing decent in leaving him behind. It was cowardly.
Mudd was trying to survive but whatever type of human being he was, he should have been shown some kind of Federation mercy. There was nothing decent in leaving him behind. It was cowardly.
He was ratting out starfleet officers, because he knew he had no chance of escape and wanted to be on the Klingons good side. Then Lorca comes along and suddenly his chances of escape increase, but at the same time he still betrays them.
Nah, sorry someone who treated fellow prisoners they way mudd did, sacrificing other people's lives so he can live comfortably doesn't deserve federation mercy.
Lorca killed an entire crew, he apparently was shown mercy. Burnham started a war. Laws and rules exist because a standard is deemed to represent what we strive to be and to represent. People don't always like giving rights to a suspect or a criminal but should rise to do that. How can the Federation lead the way, even try to lead the way if a Starfleet officer repeatedly fails to measure up?
We still don't know the circumstances around how he survived. So until I have evidence that he behaved like a coward or through negligence, I'm not going to pass judgement. That's how a real world legal system works right? You don't just condemn someone as guilty without having all the evidence right?
Mudd was condemned and abandonned by Lorca. Lorca was given the Captaincy of Discovery by Starfleet, which brings the topic full circle - sigh. It's ludicrous.
Let me say it again: I don't know how Lorca survived the destruction of the Buran. Did he set the self destruct and get beamed to an escape pod by one of his crew against his will or did he push everyone out of the way to get to the closest airlock? I don't even know if the story is true. Is it a lie that Mudd made up and Lorca went along with? I don't know yet. Until I have facts that say yes Lorca behaved like a coward then I'll judge him accordingly. I'm not going to get up in arms over something that may not even be accurate.
As for Mudd he proved to be a traitorous piece of garbage who willingly allowed others to die so he could live. No. He can stay in Klingon prison.
It's applying a double standard. To give Lorca the benefit of the doubt after hearing the words of the account from his own mouth - an allowing there is more to be told. Yet do we really know Mudd's whole story? One person is given the benefit of the doubt because he is 'liked' the other isn't.
No. Hilarious. But yeah, if I were Kirk I wouldn't mention the Mudd planet to any flag officers if I could help it.
