Spoilers The Klingon Empire in Star Trek: Discovery

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Ronald D Moore had the idea that TNG Klingons took their responsibility as governors seriously, so maybe like you say, they provide a hands-off style of government to their conquered worlds, and maybe they have also become more well-governed after Gorkon.

Anyway, here some more art for interest, looking at the surface life of Qo'noS. I like to post these just just because they give a feel of what some areas of life on the Klingon homeworld might be like. I think Into Darkness actually did a good job with the Klingons.

Abandoned 23rd century industrial zone from Into Darkness:

Concept art of the same location:

A 24th century residential area from TNG:

Bonus art from the video game Klingon Academy:

Bonus art from the travel guide cover:

 

[cooleddie74]

As generally mediocre as I find most of STID I wish that the producers of Discovery had used the JJ redesign of the Klingons from that film to be the Klingon look for DSC. As much as I don't like a few small details of the JJ Klingons' physical appearance they're head and shoulders above the way these California Raisins with Fiddle Faddle teeth look. At least most of them have hair and are recognizably Klingon with better prosthetics.

DSC is a fine show but man, is this the worst case of makeup overkill in the history of the television franchise.

 

[Crazyewok]

If it's like the Soviet Union, making peace would entail setting those worlds free.

I know, CRAZY.

I really dont think peace wif the federation would of nessasarly entailed the freedom of klingon subjecated species.

The federation was quite willing to sign peace with the Cardassians to end the border wars and sell bajor down the river. Hell its not even likely the federation even gave a flying shit about liberating bajor during that first war even though it would of been not only a huge economic blow to cardassia but a propaganda victory.
Freeing subjected species seems to be a extremely low priority of the federation.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I really dont think peace wif the federation would of nessasarly entailed the freedom of klingon subjecated species.

The federation was quite willing to sign peace with the Cardassians to end the border wars and sell bajor down the river. Hell its not even likely the federation even gave a flying shit about liberating bajor during that first war even though it would of been not only a huge economic blow to cardassia but a propaganda victory.
Freeing subjected species seems to be a extremely low priority of the federation.

Actually, isn't that the opposite? The Federation sold it's own people down the river to get Bajor as part of the deal?

 

[Crazyewok]

Actually, isn't that the opposite? The Federation sold it's own people down the river to get Bajor as part of the deal?

Sorry i might have remembered wrong.

I thought the cardies only released bajor simply because they depleted the resources they wanted and the occupation was more trouble than it was worth?

Also i though bajors freedom came a number of years after the end of the war?

 

[Annorax849]

One thing I will give Discovery is that they do *kind of* bridge the gap of the culture of the Klingons between Enterprise and TOS. As some have said, there's an idea that the Empire was in a state of slight decline during ENT. This is then compounded by the Augment virus (though that doesn't seem to exist in DIS). I always assumed that they retreated to their territory in the 2150s-60s and emerged decades later as the Fascistic Klingons we see in TOS.

Instead the problems in Enterprise just got worse and worse for about a century until T'Kuvma wanted to do something about it, setting them on a path which would eventually lead to what we see in TOS (though 10 years is a bit of a short time for that to happen).

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Yes, Bajor's freedom had nothing to do with the completely separate conflict between the Federation and Cardassians (except perhaps, we can speculate, in so far as the two might have drained the Cardassian treasury). Bajor had been a colony for decades, and was not profitable any more, probably in part due to the Bajoran Resistance.

The Federation did not attack Cardassia, because going to war and killing millions in order to intervene in the social ills of another society is not what it stands for. You can make a moral case for intervention, but Star Trek's moral standpoint was that interference in another society like that, will pull you down with it morally - as Picard said "the Prime Directive protects the Federation too" - getting involved in the upliftment of oppressed peoples across the galaxy is one way they could quickly find themselves an empire.

The merits of the Prime Directive? It's a question a social scientist, historian or philosopher would have a hard time answering, so it's above me. I can only have an opinion - and I would say it would depend on how severe the oppression of Bajor was - the Federation might want to intervene in a planetary genocide, but should it potentially risk hundreds of colonies being bombed if the majority of Bajorans are alive, and at no risk of immediate death?

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm re-watching Deep Space Nine now and the reason Bajor was freed was because of political pressure from the Federation. It's kind of a serious blow to the Cardassians' pride to give up the planet and also the Bajorans who wanted to think they drove them off. Also, the freedom of Bajor takes place because of the agreement which leads to the creation of the Marquis. Indeed, those episodes were set ups for Deep Space Nine.

Mind you, the Bajorans aren't a race needing "uplifting" which is part of the Cardassians arrongance as they're a 10,000 year old culture.

 

[Crazyewok]

One thing I will give Discovery is that they do *kind of* bridge the gap of the culture of the Klingons between Enterprise and TOS. As some have said, there's an idea that the Empire was in a state of slight decline during ENT. This is then compounded by the Augment virus (though that doesn't seem to exist in DIS). I always assumed that they retreated to their territory in the 2150s-60s and emerged decades later as the Fascistic Klingons we see in TOS.

Instead the problems in Enterprise just got worse and worse for about a century until T'Kuvma wanted to do something about it, setting them on a path which would eventually lead to what we see in TOS (though 10 years is a bit of a short time for that to happen).

It took hitler less than ten years to take a broken and corrupt German republic and fuck shit up for everyone.

 

[Crazyewok]

I'm re-watching Deep Space Nine now and the reason Bajor was freed was because of political pressure from the Federation. It's kind of a serious blow to the Cardassians' pride to give up the planet and also the Bajorans who wanted to think they drove them off. Also, the freedom of Bajor takes place because of the agreement which leads to the creation of the Marquis. Indeed, those episodes were set ups for Deep Space Nine.

Mind you, the Bajorans aren't a race needing "uplifting" which is part of the Cardassians arrongance as they're a 10,000 year old culture.

Yeah but it was a extra treaty made after the war and the federation gave up a lot too, IE there own citizens.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Rahul mentioned in another thread that Neville Page designed both the Klingons for the Kelvin timeline, and the DSC Klingons.

I remember for the 2009 movie, they did makeup around places where helmet didn't cover:

But it was for Into Darkness that they came up with my personal favorite makeup:

And DSC's bald Klingons which have caused some consternation:

I found an interview where they were asked about the baldness of the Klingons, and it gives some hope we might see Klingons with hair:

Page: “In this iteration that is correct. No hair.”

Hetrick: “For now.”​

 

[Kor]

As generally mediocre as I find most of STID I wish that the producers of Discovery had used the JJ redesign of the Klingons from that film to be the Klingon look for DSC. As much as I don't like a few small details of the JJ Klingons' physical appearance they're head and shoulders above the way these California Raisins with Fiddle Faddle teeth look. At least most of them have hair and are recognizably Klingon with better prosthetics.

DSC is a fine show but man, is this the worst case of makeup overkill in the history of the television franchise.

Agreed. The Klingons as portrayed in ST:ID could be described as a robust and handsome people.
Not so with these grotesque STD Klingons.

Kor

 

[cooleddie74]

These Klingons are the textbook definition of overkill. It's one thing to update a look but this is like taking a utilitarian yet kinda cool pickup truck and turning it into a Bigfoot at a monster truck rally.

 

[cooleddie74]

One thing I will give Discovery is that they do *kind of* bridge the gap of the culture of the Klingons between Enterprise and TOS. As some have said, there's an idea that the Empire was in a state of slight decline during ENT. This is then compounded by the Augment virus (though that doesn't seem to exist in DIS). I always assumed that they retreated to their territory in the 2150s-60s and emerged decades later as the Fascistic Klingons we see in TOS.

Instead the problems in Enterprise just got worse and worse for about a century until T'Kuvma wanted to do something about it, setting them on a path which would eventually lead to what we see in TOS (though 10 years is a bit of a short time for that to happen).

Yeah, that's kind of the feeling I'm getting from the first episodes of the new series. After ENT and the onset of the Augment virus catastrophe within the Empire the alleged stability that Phlox's cure had brought quickly fell apart and the Klingons spent decades engaged in political infighting and struggling to overcome the medical and cosmetic effects of the virus. By the time of the border raids and attacks of the early 23rd century and the Battle of Donatu V the Klingon Empire was in political chaos and increasingly more unstable and a threat to neighboring species and powers.

T'Kuvma simply took advantage of this chaos and decided to use his ancient sarcophagus ship and claims to be the heir of Kahless to unify the Empire under one strong house and assert itself as a great player and power in galactic politics. Due to the turmoil of the era it was easy to attract followers willing to believe his claim and buy into his plans for unification.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

One thing I will give Discovery is that they do *kind of* bridge the gap of the culture of the Klingons between Enterprise and TOS. As some have said, there's an idea that the Empire was in a state of slight decline during ENT. This is then compounded by the Augment virus (though that doesn't seem to exist in DIS). I always assumed that they retreated to their territory in the 2150s-60s and emerged decades later as the Fascistic Klingons we see in TOS.

Instead the problems in Enterprise just got worse and worse for about a century until T'Kuvma wanted to do something about it, setting them on a path which would eventually lead to what we see in TOS (though 10 years is a bit of a short time for that to happen).

Yeah, very true. The only thing missing really is the 'Fascistic Klingons'. Maybe General Kol is the start?

 

[shapeshifter]

These Klingons are the textbook definition of overkill. It's one thing to update a look but this is like taking a utilitarian yet kinda cool pickup truck and turning it into a Bigfoot at a monster truck rally.

Off Topic! This isn't about the Abramsverse ships.

I do think the producers have a plan to reconcile the Klingon debacle in the end, and this is encouraging: (EM)

Page: “In this iteration that is correct. No hair.”

Hetrick: “For now.”

 

[Mudd]

Rahul mentioned in another thread that Neville Page designed both the Klingons for the Kelvin timeline, and the DSC Klingons.

I remember for the 2009 movie, they did makeup around places where helmet didn't cover:

Admiral Halsey!

 

[fireproof78]

Admiral Halsey!

Still waiting for Uncle Albert.

 

[USS Triumphant]

One thing we've never really seen in Trek that I can recall is a temporal incident that actually leaves permanent, major, lasting changes to the timeline. Pretty much always, the goal is to either repair damage that something else caused to the timeline, or, to achieve some goal while minimally disrupting the timeline.

What if Discovery is going to - intentionally or accidentally - cause such a large, permanent change? And when they get back to the present, the effects of that change include Klingons that look as we would have expected from TOS-ENT? Maybe after finding themselves in the past, they intentionally mess with Klingon evolutionary history to... make them more like humans and make peace easier? Wipe them out, but fail with unintended consequences? Maybe crewmembers end up stranded on Ancient Q'onoS and become part of the gene pool?

 

[zar]

One thing we've never really seen in Trek that I can recall is a temporal incident that actually leaves permanent, major, lasting changes to the timeline. Pretty much always, the goal is to either repair damage that something else caused to the timeline, or, to achieve some goal while minimally disrupting the timeline.

Actually, Romulans blew up DS9 and collapsed the wormhole in season 3, and the Dominion War never happened. Then O'Brien replaced his dead past self and changed everything permanently.