Spoilers The Klingon Empire in Star Trek: Discovery

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Isn't that Kol? He wasn't having any of that Kahless stuff and viewed the war merely as a means of personal advancement and an opportunity to position himself and his house advantageously in the postwar period. He's practical to the point of being cynical.

About the only thing he didn't predict was a strong, professional standing army (i.e. the KDF) whose purpose is to defend the entirety of the empire. However, such an organization could well spring up over the course of the war naturally.

Kol is somewhat less wrapped up in their legends, but I think he still referred to the beacon as sacred (if I remember right), and bent the knee briefly to Voq (albeit as a ruse). They had his actor read 'The Final Reflection' by John M Ford. I think they are painting him as someone who is still part of a highly ritualized culture, but is an opportunist like the Klingons in that novel, who operate a society based on survival of the strongest. So I'm not entirely sure they are going to reconcile these Klingons with TOS and The Motion Picture era, which is disappointing and also a little worrying. We haven't even seen any hint so far of non-ritual obsessed side of Klingon society, like Kor, Koloth, Kang, Kruge, or Chang.

We need practical Klingons like these:

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I always thought that the Klingon Defence Force might be what the Klingon military became after the Khitomer Conference - the way Japan's military was re-organized into the Japanese Self Defence Forces, and Japan was banned from making war after WW2 - an indication of reforms from before Gorkon, when the empire conquered openly. But in truth, even very militant states can have hypocritical names for their armed forces.

Warriors don't really cut it in battle, against discipline, which is why say Rome was victorious over the Gauls - Roman soldiers building a double wall around an entire Gaulish settlement in quick time and starving them, was a level of discipline they didn't stand a chance against, no matter how fierce individual warriors may have been. The Klingons should have a capable, professional, organized, disciplined military, or else it makes no sense how they have managed to hold an empire against other states with those traits. So far, we haven't been presented with much in the way of logistical hints as to how the Klingons become the Cold War totalitarians of TOS.

On a related topic, as mentioned in those threads, I wish their ships had followed established Klingon designs closer - I am a little disappointed that there hasn't been any hint of existing classes - such as the ubiquitous D7, which is as much a symbol of the Klingon Empire as the Klingons themselves:

Klingon ships over the years:

Raptor class scout ship (22nd century)

Early bird-of-prey (22nd century)

Scout ship (22nd century)

Transport ship (22nd century)

D4 class battle-cruiser (22nd century) [non-canonical... thanks to producers]

D5 class battle-cruiser (22nd century, 23rd century)

D6 class battle-cruiser (22nd century, 23rd century) [non-canonical... nice transition design]

D7 class battle-cruiser - k't'inga variant (22nd century, 23rd century, 24th century)

D7 class battle-cruiser - TOS variant (23rd century)

D4 class bird-of-prey (23rd century) [Kelvin timeline]

D7 class ??? warbird (23rd century) [Kelvin timeline]

D12 / b'rel / k'vort class bird-of-prey (23rd century, 24th century)

Vor'cha class attack cruiser (24th century)

Transport ship (24th century)

Negh'var class dreadnought (24th century)

 

[Tuskin38]

I thought one of the designs resembled the Ent-Era raptors in shape.

Kol's outfit is my favourite so far.

The clothes Voq and L'Rell were wearing without their armour reminded me of the TOS uniform, with the horizontal stitching. L'Rells especially.

 

[STR]

Kol is somewhat less wrapped up in their legends, but I think he still referred to the beacon as sacred (if I remember right), and bent the knee briefly to Voq (albeit as a ruse).

Just because Kol is fluent in Kahless-ese doesn't mean he believes it. As you pointed out yourself, he bent the knee solely to mollify the cultists. As for the Sacred Beacon, let me put it this way: regardless of your or my religion when I refer to the Holy Grail you know that I'm talking about a specific cup. Sacred Beacon is specific and not to be confused with even the Starfleet beacon that lured Shenzhou into the system in the first place.

They had his actor read 'The Final Reflection' by John M Ford.

Okay, but unless they show Kol reading a John Ford novel that really doesn't mean much right now.

I think they are painting him as someone who is still part of a highly ritualized culture but is an opportunist

That's basically what I said above.

the Klingons in that novel, who operate based on survival of the strongest.

Just because the production team is using the book as an inspiration doesn't mean they're treating it as a Bible. Survival of the fittest, to be honest, doesn't really fit with highly ritualized nobility anyway. You're either strong on your own (mertiocracy) or you inhererit a kind of divine grace (or at least privilege) from your ancestors.

T'Kuvma can easily interpreted as claiming the Klingon race as blessed (by genetics or culture, they killed their gods so it's not a literal blessing) as a whole and deserving of imperium. Not that these things are black and white. He was, clearly, more egalitarian than was normal for his people. Everyone is on a spectrum.

So I'm not entirely sure they are going to reconcile these Klingons with TOS and The Motion Picture era, which is disappointing and also a little worrying.

We haven't even seen any hint so far of non-ritual obsessed side of Klingon society, like Kor, Koloth, Kang, Kruge, or Chang.

Maybe, but remember that we didn't actually see that many Klingons in the TOS era. What you're presuming is a universal attitude may just be personal views or even a product of social status. Kruge, while noble (since he was addressed as "lord") might have been more pragmatic simply because he was from a lesser house and he simply had to hustle more to get ahead instead of standing on ritual or legalities.

Gorkan, Chang and the rest of his entourage had...maybe...5 minutes of dialog. Most of that was with Kirk and co, who wouldn't be receptive of tales of Kahless to begin with. We don't even know what Chang's endgame really was or where he came from. He was a reactionary, even if he wasn't religious himself, such usurpers have often gotten in bed with social traditionalists.

I always thought that the Klingon Defence Force might be what the Klingon military became after the Khitomer Conference - the way Japan's military was re-organized into the Japanese Self Defence Forces, and Japan was banned from making war after WW2 - an indication of reforms from before Gorkon, when the empire conquered openly. But in truth, even very militant states can have hypocritical names for their armed forces.

We don't know where the KDF term comes from. Kirk, in TOS, was never told he was facing a particular house. Kor and all the other Klingons were acting (or claimed to act) on behalf of the state.

Does that mean there was a standing army or does that mean the TOS Klingons were part of the ruling alliance (in fuedal kingdoms, the head of the ruling faction *is* the state)? It's ambiguous.

Warriors don't really cut it in battle, against discipline, which is why say Rome was victorious over the Gauls - Roman soldiers building a double wall around an entire Gaulish settlement in quick time and starving them, was a level of discipline they didn't stand a chance against, no matter how fierce individual warriors may have been. The Klingons should have a capable, professional, organized, disciplined military, or else it makes no sense how they have managed to hold an empire against other states with those traits. So far, we haven't been presented with much in the way of logistical hints as to how the Klingons become the Cold War totalitarians of TOS.

Just because they're a warrior culture doesn't mean they lack discipline or that personal prowess is the only way to win a battle. Indeed, the DIS Klingons are very interested in using a technological advantage (cloak) to win.

 

[Crazyewok]

I think the military is supplied by houses and a centralised army.

KDF is a kind of fedral army that all houses have to contribute too, plus it attracks houseless warriors no attached to anyone. The KDF awnsering only to the council (in theory).

Then you have houses that have smaller private armys that when added together at least equal the KDF.

It also seems that the Klingons have lots of privateers and freelance military units that are niether connected to a house or the KDF.

I would also hazzard a guess the tenancy toward centralisation and decentralisation shifts a lot backwards and forwards.

With discovery Klingons they are likely going through a religious nutjob phase which is going to lead them to a very ugly place and the more cynical military style klingons of TOS will then grow in power as a faction and take over to fix the mess the religious nuts did.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Personally, I don't want Kol to merely be an opportunist within a Klingon society obsessed with legend, ritual and honor from top to bottom - I want to actually see some variation of cultural identity; perhaps swathes of Klingon society that don't follow Kahless. What is their population? Nine billion on Qo'noS let's say? Within that many people there might be huge degrees of variation. Maybe even castes akin to the idea proposed in 'Kitumba', the unused 70s script. But they haven't shown much secular military Klingon culture yet, so it remains a mere hope of mine to see hints of why TOS style fascists came to power (as Gene Coon and co. designed them originally - it would be interesting to see those themes revisited and explored further).

It's not far enough for my tastes personally, to just have Kol an opportunist within a society that is almost theocratic. We haven't seen enough yet to tell what the long term intent is, but they do seem very ritualized thus far. As I've said before here, I would like to see Klingons who were completely devoid of inter-subjective belief in Kahless and honor - it would be a nice breath of fresh air in a culture that became too dominated by this stuff during TNG and DS9 - it would also tie well with TOS. This stems from long running discussions about how Klingons became a stereotyped ritual culture in some parts of Star Trek, which in a poll, the majority of forum members (65% - 70 votes out of 107) surveyed also thought they had become a one note culture to the point of lessening their interest as a fictional society.

I liked this idea that perhaps the Klingons went through a cultural revolution sometime between ENT and TOS, in which mobs of Red Guard went around Qo'noS burning temples of Kahless, and instituting a new regime based on a totalitarian military ideology (the images above are from a famous Klingon Propaganda fan video on YouTube in which the comparisons between the Klingon Empire and Soviet Union were made explicit). It would have explained their cultural shift before TOS quite nicely. Yes, it could be that Kor's dialogue in Errand of Mercy for example, is just a Klingon talking as a human, to a human, but there are lots of hints of a culture that went through a different period at this time - as noted on the previous page, Gene Roddenbury and Gene L Coon's intention was to make the Klingons anti-individualist, representative of the worst totalitarian societies from WW2 - their officers were monitored remotely according to Kor - he came off in that episode as warlike, but otherwise devoid of religious ideology. The uniforms became more standardized than the furs worn in ENT, which might indicate re-organization:

ENT (22nd century):

TOS (23rd century):

TNG (24th century):

Perhaps their society reformed after Gorkon's initiative, into a state where they were more culturally open, there was a revival in the traditions surrounding Kahless (just as there is a Confucian revival in modern China after Confucius was denounced during the Cultural Revolution, as a reactionary influence). It might serve as a good fictional reason for why they returned to more ceremonial looking armor, but which was still standardized. Of course, the writers probably have something else in mind entirely, but I am disappointed that at the very least, the first few episodes have not yet showed any hints of the fascist themes of TOS Klingon antagonists.

 

[ralph]

What do you think about it?

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[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I'm not sure if I've posted it before, but here is some of the diversity of the Klingon Empire:

Qo'noS (mountainous zone) - 22nd century:

Qo'noS (industrial zone) - 23rd century:

Qo'noS (urban zone) - 24th century:

Rura Penthe - 23rd century:

Narendra III - 22nd century:

Qu'Vat - 22nd century:

Boreth - 24th century:

Krios Prime (conquered world) - 24th century:

 

[Tuskin38]

What do you think about it?

We already have a thread dedicated to this,

 

[ralph]

We already have a thread dedicated to this,

Ok. Thanks.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Klingon Defense Force actually exists as a unified military organization well before the events on DSC. It existed as early as the ENT era and was the Empire's national defense force well over a century before T'Kuvma's crusade to seize control of the Empire. The KDF isn't something that springs up after the new series and there's no evidence that the Empire is in such disarray that it doesn't have an organized imperial military, however splintered the loyalties of its members may be during this time period.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The Klingon Defense Force actually exists as a unified military organization well before the events on DSC. It existed as early as the ENT era and was the Empire's national defense force well over a century before T'Kuvma's crusade to seize control of the Empire. The KDF isn't something that springs up after the new series and there's no evidence that the Empire is in such disarray that it doesn't have an organized imperial military, however splintered the loyalties of its members may be during this time period.

This is the invention of Discovery but it seems in this universe, the Klingon Empire has become a failed Balkanized state with 24 different countries making it up.

Which is awesome but dealt with as an aside.

Hence, the KDF existed but no longer does since they are now divided into Household militaries.

 

[cooleddie74]

Which I can buy. The KDF splinters and falls apart due to political strife within the Empire and has to be reorganized in the aftermath of the events in the new series. That works.

Because it's sure not a new military organization.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Which I can buy. The KDF splinters and falls apart due to political strife within the Empire and has to be reorganized in the aftermath of the events in the new series. That works.

Because it's sure not a new military organization.

Mind you, that's because, "Everything in the 22nd century is the same as in the 24th" design philosophy of ENT.

 

[cooleddie74]

For what it's worth the D4 battle cruiser would have been a gorgeous vessel design to see on ENT. A shame the producers killed it without giving it even one chance to appear onscreen.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

@Ghouleddie74 - I feel the same way - the reason it didn't appear was utterly obnoxious too, so I try my best to forget it.

I know that some people prefer to ignore the appearance of the D7/K't'inga class in "ENT: Unexpected" the season one episode, and treat it as a visual error, as Longinus was saying in another thread recently, but if you do take everything that happens on screen as visual canon, as I grew up doing because it was the policy of the Star Trek: Encyclopedia era, I think it can actually be rationalized somewhat, by having the class divided into different sub-classes, or model types - it serves to space the operational history of the design out over the 200 years we have seen it in service - let's start by saying, hypothetically, that the design seen in ENT was the earliest, and TOS's design came later:

D7 - design variant 1 (aquamarine nacelles, dark hull) - 22nd century [ENT, VOY]:

D7 - design variant 2 (solid nacelles, light hull) - 22nd?/23rd century [TOS]:

D7 - design variant 3 (solid nacelles, dark hull) - 23rd/24th century [TMP, TNG]:

D7 - design variant 4 (cyan nacelles, light hull) - 23rd/24th century [TUC, TNG, DS9]:

I know in the past most people have tended to separate the K't'inga-class from the D7-class, such was policy during the writing of the Star Trek: Encyclopedia - but what if the design was an overall name - and each sub-class was like the different productions of a MIG fighter plane - with substantial differences for every new production block. I propose that the last couple may have served side by side, to explain why both the solid-black-nacelle and cyan-light-nacelle K't'ingas appeared in the TNG era - they are meant to be the same, but as fans, we can reason they are slightly different models.

But a starship isn't a fighter plane, so I wouldn't endorse this kind of thing too much in Star Trek.

Here is design variant 4 at the Battle of Deep Space 9:

Here is design variant 3 appearing in The Next Generation:

Here is design variant 1 appearing in Voyager (after a decades of travel):

Possible fifth, green variant, from Trials and Tribble-ations:

 

[Crazyewok]

About the size of the Klingon empire. I think its smaller at in terms of economics.

To be there is a large economic disparity between the federation and Klingon empire.

The Klingon empire has to literally hyper industrlise and mine its moon praxis into oblivion to keep up military balance with the federation.

Hence why the Klingons likely had to swallow there bile and accept peace with the federation as when praxis went bang there economy spiralled into oblivion and there military went the same way accordingly, meaning the Klingons would not have any chance standing toe to toe with the federation.

As for a question ealier on why the federation would make peace with a empire that has likely dozens if not hundreds of conquered subject worlds?

Well the USA has alliances with Israel or even worse Saudi Arabia with its horrific human rights abuses. USA will happily turn a blind eye to women being excuted for rape and people being flogged and beheaded for critizing the government as long as the sweet sweet oil flows. They will even turn a blind eye to saudis funding international terrorism.

Likewise the federation are most likely turning a blind eye to Klingon abuses for there own ressons, and having the prime directive as extra justification.

Before bajor got its independence, the federation where quite happy to sell it down the river after the 1st Cardassian war in the peacetreaty, hence intial Distrust of bajorians when the federation turned up.

 

[Charles Phipps]

If it's like the Soviet Union, making peace would entail setting those worlds free.

I know, CRAZY.

 

[F. King Daniel]

For what it's worth the D4 battle cruiser would have been a gorgeous vessel design to see on ENT. A shame the producers killed it without giving it even one chance to appear onscreen.

It looks too much the same as the D7 to me to be a ship of a century before. Then they just went and used the old D7 (and virtually identical Bird of Prey) anyway.

It's all so weird and pointless. The offical reason they didn't use it ("Not enough windows" iirc) is extremely fishy.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

@Charles Phipps - Yeah, that is how I see it too - the USA had ideological disagreements with the Soviet Union - but it was in the interests of world peace, and survival, to not antagonize one superpower or another into a nuclear World War III - the Soviet Union, being less economically powerful, did still have to strain it's resources to keep up with the USA - but it was a vast country anyway.

Two evenly matched sides with the capability of annihilating each other - war wold have been disaster for either. The United Federation of Planets is probably well aware of the Klingon Empire's problems, but understands that going to war would kill millions, and destroy planets. The comparison is made explicit in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Praxis can be seen as Chernobyl.

@King Daniel Paid CBS Plant - The reason was terrible. Apparently some poor production designer had stayed up all night making the above model of the D4 class for them. And then some producer said that it didn't have enough windows (probably, I'm guessing, to make it look bigger and more imposing, like an Imperial Star Destroyer looming over the NX-01), and thus used the CGI model of the K't'inga instead. Horrible sense of understanding.

 

[Charles Phipps]

@USS Einstein In simpler terms, I think the Klingon Empire by TNG has lost all of its conquered states except the ones which they've peacefully acclimated. Before you say, "UNPOSSIBLE", I should mention this is what "Errand of Mercy" was all about as the Organians basically forced the Klingon Empire to learn how to deal with planets peacefully in its expansion.

Likewise, the Klingons don't actually have to rule themselves. As we see in "A Private Little War", the Klingons seem to be less Roman Governors and more British Empire and work through local chiefs who administrate in their name in exchange for weapons and support.

So they might not be losing all of their territory, just a significant chunk.

But yes, given we never actually see any slave species in TNG and no mention of them until the Cardassian worlds are conquered, my inclination is they went back to their original territory. This COULD have been a one-sided treaty but given the Klingons acquire Khitomer as part of the deal, I'm inclined to think the Federation didn't go Treaty of Versailles on them either but traded uninhabited worlds for Klingon freeing of slaves.

This is all speculation of course but Star Trek is inconsistent on these things so we have to use our imagination.

Is this too "happy ending"? Well, maybe but I should point out this is what happened to the Soviet Union and the Klingons weren't in a position to negotiate for "status quo" because the Federation had them over a barrel. If the treaties terms were, "You go back to being warmongering despots after we help you rebuild your planet" then I doubt General Chang would have had a problem with it.