Spoilers The game changing Voq theory
- Thread starter SJA
- Start date
No probs mate!
With the release of the episode titles we know episode 9 is titled 'Lethe'. Locutus of Bored, pointed this out in another thread:
My guess is that this is the episode where Voq meets the Matriarchs of House Mokai and they work their magic on him turning him into Ash Tyler. I'm wondering if the change is irreversible and this will be Discovery's way of explaining Klingons with no ridges? I don't think it's necessary to provide an explanation but they may want to do it for some of the fanbase.
My guess is that this is the episode where Voq meets the Matriarchs of House Mokai and they work their magic on him turning him into Ash Tyler. I'm wondering if the change is irreversible and this will be Discovery's way of explaining Klingons with no ridges? I don't think it's necessary to provide an explanation but they may want to do it for some of the fanbase.
Putting aside all other considerations, a key reason for why this theory is silly has to do with the practical and logistical realities of Starfleet service. Lorca being who he is, he's likely going to want to use Ash Tyler as an asset, which means checking his service record and talking to people who would've served with him, making this kind of deception impossible to maintain.
That doesn't stop there having been a real Ash Tyler that the Klingons captured and "mind sifted" for information. Any blanks, he could attribute to PTSD.
Unless there was a real Ash Tyler who was captured by the Klingons and Voq is surgically altered to look like him, and implanted with his memories.
I'm new to this party, and while it is interesting.........and I feel there maybe something strange going on with Voq re: the lack of info on the actor......I'm not sure this is quite it. Don't we SEE Ash in episode 5 this week? If they haven't swapped him by this week I don't see how it would be done in episode 9. Who knows, I definitely feel like the show runners are masterful poker players and have not shown hardly any of their cards just yet.
Actually it's episode 6 that is titled Lethe
Thanks, now that i think of it, i saw someone mention that earlier today. For someone reason it got stuck in head as episode 9
I think your point stands. But my thought on Lethe, being directly after Tyler's first appearance, is that it might relate to his excuses about "memory blanks".
We could meet Tyler first as a human in one episode and get the reveal in flashbacks during the next.
But this is a bonkers, I love it lol. And if they go this route to explain out the ridges in such a convoluted and ridiculous way I don't think I could be mad.
But this is a bonkers, I love it lol. And if they go this route to explain out the ridges in such a convoluted and ridiculous way I don't think I could be mad.
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There is definitely some deception, in terms of the actor who plays Voq. Shazad Latif is playing Voq without the appropriate credit in the post credit roll. However, since he is listed as a regular in the opening credits, that supersedes the invalid Voq post credit which I believe would be fine under SAG rules. This Javid guy in the credits is pure bullshit by the show-runners to throw people off of their narrative plan.
@DigificWriter, care to make a wager on this?? I say Shazad Latif is Voq, you say he is not. Whoever is wrong has to put "I was wrong about Voq!!" in their signature for a whole week.
@DigificWriter, care to make a wager on this?? I say Shazad Latif is Voq, you say he is not. Whoever is wrong has to put "I was wrong about Voq!!" in their signature for a whole week.
So if all this is true, then in a way we go back to the old novel-verse and FASA idea that the Klingons deliberately created smoothie Klingons to deal directly with humans and the Federation.
It's no worse than the idea that everyone was accidentally infected with a DNA-altering virus.
Kor
It's no worse than the idea that everyone was accidentally infected with a DNA-altering virus.
Kor
So if all this is true, then in a way we go back to the old novel-verse and FASA idea that the Klingons deliberately created smoothie Klingons to deal directly with humans and the Federation.
It's no worse than the idea that everyone was accidentally infected with a DNA-altering virus.
Kor
In the Vanguard novels it wasn’t the entire race that was infected. Just a large subsection. I thought that was an interesting way to address Enterprise’s Augment virus.
That being said, I think think that two part arc is the second worst thing Enterprise added to Star Trek. The first being it’s early 00s Bro-ness. It’s the second newest show and at times it’s more problematic than much older material.
I never thought they all were infected. They're an interstellar Empire, it would really make no sense.
The episode itself never showed it spreading to the entire Empire. It was clearly implyed that only a portion of Klingons went smooth.
When I heard about the Tyler/Voq theory, I did not like it at all. I am totally convinced it is true (primary because of issues with Voq being so separate from the main "action" and with Latif looking like he could be under that makeup), but I didn't like it. The inherent conflicts between a knowing spy Tyler and Burnham/Georgiou/T'Kuvma/psudeo-canibalism are just too much. I couldn't enjoy watching a character who we are supposed to see as a POW/PTSD victim and who supposedly has a romantic relationship with Burnham end up being a spy all along. That kind of thing only works when the audience is supposed to know the truth (like Bond seducing a girl and having her die tragically) and is somewhat on the spy's side. It especially doesn't work with Voq because of his fanaticism about "remaining klingon". I couldn't "track" with a character set up like that who violates everythign he believes in to do this kind of spy thing. If there was some alternative explanation...
Here is that alternative. This is what I think would be the only valid way to pull this storyline off. Plus it makes sense that Voq who has such strong feelings about "remaining Klingon" would thus have strong internal conflicts once he is triggered and remembers his true identity. It adds to his character arc. Plus it all fits in with the Discovery theme of discovering your enemy's nature and discovering yourself.
This would be an awesome connection if true. I think the Discovery writers are up to having this knowledge and connecting it to this story. Good find!
I think this covers it. The Klingons captured a real Ash Tyler, ripped his mind, implanted those memories in Voq as cover. Any remaining issues/discrepancies/missing portions are covered via the trauma of being a POW/PTSD/torture. Also, the Klingon torture stuff could cover genetic abnormalities if it is said Tyler was experimented upon.
Now for my own additions:
- It was a little clumsy how L'Rell name dropped the House of Mokai's "other" names: deceivers, liars, etc. When I watched "Butcher's knife..." for the third time, that line stuck out at me. Seems like there is a heavy point to that.
- The "six month" pause while Voq and crew sat stranded repairing their ship: I think this is a little deception by the writers to make us think there isn't enough time between "Butcher's Knife..." and "Choose Your Pain" for Voq to become Tyler. We are meant to think that though we don't see Voq anywhere, that he is off at the House Mokai "sacrificing everything" and that we will see him later. First it doesn't make sense that everyone would wait so long to come back to the Binary Stars to get the cloak, second, they mention it two separate times but only in dialog, not in "objective" scene-setting on-screen text. Maybe having everything in the native Klingon will have this one big payoff that in Klingon "six months" isn't the Federation's "six months". I know this last bit is a stretch, but so be it, and hopefully there is some good point to having all the Klingon scenes in the native language and it would answer the long gap before getting one of the most important technologies in the war - which is my biggest annoyance from "Butcher's Knife..." Again, I know this is a stretch.
- And this addresses how/why the main adversary (Voq) would have their entire storyline (so far, and for the foreseeable future) take place entirely separately from the Discovery crew. Secretly they are together more of the time.
So in summary, I didn't like the theory coming in, but I see there is good promise in these alternatives and potentials, and I am looking forward to seeing it play out.
Here is that alternative. This is what I think would be the only valid way to pull this storyline off. Plus it makes sense that Voq who has such strong feelings about "remaining Klingon" would thus have strong internal conflicts once he is triggered and remembers his true identity. It adds to his character arc. Plus it all fits in with the Discovery theme of discovering your enemy's nature and discovering yourself.
This would be an awesome connection if true. I think the Discovery writers are up to having this knowledge and connecting it to this story. Good find!
+
I think this covers it. The Klingons captured a real Ash Tyler, ripped his mind, implanted those memories in Voq as cover. Any remaining issues/discrepancies/missing portions are covered via the trauma of being a POW/PTSD/torture. Also, the Klingon torture stuff could cover genetic abnormalities if it is said Tyler was experimented upon.
Now for my own additions:
- It was a little clumsy how L'Rell name dropped the House of Mokai's "other" names: deceivers, liars, etc. When I watched "Butcher's knife..." for the third time, that line stuck out at me. Seems like there is a heavy point to that.
- The "six month" pause while Voq and crew sat stranded repairing their ship: I think this is a little deception by the writers to make us think there isn't enough time between "Butcher's Knife..." and "Choose Your Pain" for Voq to become Tyler. We are meant to think that though we don't see Voq anywhere, that he is off at the House Mokai "sacrificing everything" and that we will see him later. First it doesn't make sense that everyone would wait so long to come back to the Binary Stars to get the cloak, second, they mention it two separate times but only in dialog, not in "objective" scene-setting on-screen text. Maybe having everything in the native Klingon will have this one big payoff that in Klingon "six months" isn't the Federation's "six months". I know this last bit is a stretch, but so be it, and hopefully there is some good point to having all the Klingon scenes in the native language and it would answer the long gap before getting one of the most important technologies in the war - which is my biggest annoyance from "Butcher's Knife..." Again, I know this is a stretch.
- And this addresses how/why the main adversary (Voq) would have their entire storyline (so far, and for the foreseeable future) take place entirely separately from the Discovery crew. Secretly they are together more of the time.
So in summary, I didn't like the theory coming in, but I see there is good promise in these alternatives and potentials, and I am looking forward to seeing it play out.
I assume the Voq plotline is going to go like this:
We don't know Tyler is Voq for most of the story and it's a SHOCKING REVEAL but his actions underly he's started to become much much more sympathetic to the humans.
And the result of his actions will be making a Heel Face Turn.
OR they'll handle it like Grant Ward in Agents of SHIELD and they just kill him.
We don't know Tyler is Voq for most of the story and it's a SHOCKING REVEAL but his actions underly he's started to become much much more sympathetic to the humans.
And the result of his actions will be making a Heel Face Turn.
OR they'll handle it like Grant Ward in Agents of SHIELD and they just kill him.
I prefer the idea of him being a sleeper agent, simply because that opens up the potential for inner conflict about identity and loyalties further along the line once he is activated. It also makes it easier to have him develop as a member of the crew and even form relationships with them without having to leave hints of deception or treachery for the audience to pick up on. Voq seems such an earnest straight-laced klingon, it's really hard for me to imagine him being as duplicitous as would be required to pose as convincingly as a Starfleet officer for an extended period of time.
