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DS9 Inconsistencies

So is your contention, that anytime any character, A, who would plot revenge is forced to be present with another character, B, who killed someone who A loved, it is inconsistent that A would not always kill B? I don't agree. Yes, starting with a sliver of experience and truth is a good thing, but not all such interactions would lead to revenge murder. That is why it isn't an inconsistency: just because a character is capable of it and willing to do it, and just because it might happen in these circumstances, it is not required to happen. That is why I posed the hypothetical of the "vow". With a vow there would be an inconsistency if the conditions of the vow were met, but the vow wasn't carried out. And I agree, for pure effectiveness Garak wouldn't make a public vow if it would decrease his chance of succeeding, it was just a hypothetical - Kira, however, would make a vow cause she doesn't "give a damn" about what others think. :)



First, please point to any point where I was passive aggressive or sarcastic. I straight up asked a question of 'so what if their intel agencies weren't wiped out?' and argued that they were severely damaged. That is neither passive aggressive or sarcastic. But getting back to the real point...

At no point did I claim that I "believe that all the leaders of each agency were in the fleet". I said that some additional leaders must have been in the fleet, to command the other ships, and some were lost to assassinations preceding the attack. The loss of a lot of agents and some senior leadership significantly impaired the agencies going forward.

And you don't have much support for claiming the plan was not a "grand plan". It wasn't the Dominion's entire strategy for the alpha quadrant, but the Founder certainly considered it an effective way to eliminate two rival powers, and Tain and Garak seemed impressed by it. And as I have pointed out, Cardassia was never a threat to the Dominion after that point, so it appears to have been effective on them. That can't be disputed.

No it is not my contention that character A would always kill character B for revenge. It's my contention that Kira and Garek would Kill Damar based on the character traits built throughout the show. I stated you were being slightly passive aggressive and sarcastic, which you was with the "so what" sentence. It didn't bother me, I just thought you may like to know you are coming across this way. I'm quite enjoying the blog. There would of been plenty of leaders in both agencies left back in the Alpha Quadrant. And, again we know both agencies survive, albeit the order eventually falls, but the Romulans rebuild.

It can be disputed, the founders did not know of the Tain's plan to rid the threat from the Gamma quadrant. They come across the plan and aid it along. You cannot say Cardassia was not a threat to the dominion after the die is cast, they still had their military and the civilian movement had been gaining ground on the central command for years, which gave the Klingons an opportunity to do what they were born to do, fight. This is what weakened the Cardassians, that was another opportunity that the founders did not engineer, but monopolised and were most likely hoping for, the paranoia of the solids.
 
I disagree, Garek and Kira would not set their feelings aside, they both loved Ziyal. Garek a brilliant spy would assassinate Damar probably long before season 7. Would Kira and emotional officer be able to control her feelings. I don't buy it, but that's your view, doesn't need to be mine.

Perhaps, but as a hypothetical what is to stop them putting aside their feelings, deal with the Dominion and then take their revenge?

But people change over time, what would killing Damar actually accomplish? It could drive the Cardassians back to the Dominion, causing them to win the Dominion war? What do you think would happen to Bajor in the scenario that Kira assinates Damar and the Dominion wins the war?
 
Perhaps, but as a hypothetical what is to stop them putting aside their feelings, deal with the Dominion and then take their revenge?

But people change over time, what would killing Damar actually accomplish? It could drive the Cardassians back to the Dominion, causing them to win the Dominion war? What do you think would happen to Bajor in the scenario that Kira assinates Damar and the Dominion wins the war?

That’s exactly what I believe would happen, killing Damar would drive the Cardassians back to the Dominion. If Kira killed Damar, the Domionion would thank her for assassination of the rebel leader.
 
That’s exactly what I believe would happen, killing Damar would drive the Cardassians back to the Dominion. If Kira killed Damar, the Domionion would thank her for assassination of the rebel leader.

Driving the Cardassians back to the Dominion would be a bad thing both Kira and Garak knew that, so perhaps as rational beings they are able to put aside any feelings they have and work with Damar.
 
Driving the Cardassians back to the Dominion would be a bad thing both Kira and Garak knew that, so perhaps as rational beings they are able to put aside any feelings they have and work with Damar.
Love makes one irrational, Kira is an emotional officer. Garek found somone to love after being exciled for years from his own people. I think their characters wouldn’t be able to work with Damar and they would kill him. I actually think Garek would of attempted to kill him long before the rebel movement.
 
Garak is a very calculating guy; he'd be able to adjust.

Kira is a bit more problematic and she was very militant in protecting Ziyal. I might not have her killing Damar exactly but linking up with Damar should've perplexed Kira much more than it did I feel.
 
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Of course they did, but you don't see Jews and the Germans in a military alliance together. For example that would be like Germany and Israel being under one government.
No, but there would be no opportunity for such an alliance to form. West Germany's military rebuilding was undertaken under the aegis of the formation of NATO, and the guarantor's of Israel's independence were UK, France and, primarily, the United States. In that scenario, the Dominion-esque power--the one that dominated and directed allies--was the US, and the US used NATO and other organizations to direct West German military development toward direct conflict with the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Unions, and Israel toward affecting Middle East order. Neither nation developed the capacity to project power globally (reserved for US, UK and France), thus really could offer no direct support to one another.

OTOH, strong personal ties developed quickly between West German leaders, Israeli leaders and Jewish organizations throughout the world. These were largely pursued through the insistence of Adenauer, who was not himself a Nazi and who saw it as a lynchpin in his strategy for building credibility for his western German state. And Jews who suffered in the Holocaust, for their part, had a love/hate relationship with German culture. Though they suffered, many had been raised to regard things like German music and literature as the pinnacle of western civilization. It is somewhat remarkable that it took less than 20 years to establish official relations between the two.
 
No, but there would be no opportunity for such an alliance to form. West Germany's military rebuilding was undertaken under the aegis of the formation of NATO, and the guarantor's of Israel's independence were UK, France and, primarily, the United States. In that scenario, the Dominion-esque power--the one that dominated and directed allies--was the US, and the US used NATO and other organizations to direct West German military development toward direct conflict with the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Unions, and Israel toward affecting Middle East order. Neither nation developed the capacity to project power globally (reserved for US, UK and France), thus really could offer no direct support to one another.

OTOH, strong personal ties developed quickly between West German leaders, Israeli leaders and Jewish organizations throughout the world. These were largely pursued through the insistence of Adenauer, who was not himself a Nazi and who saw it as a lynchpin in his strategy for building credibility for his western German state. And Jews who suffered in the Holocaust, for their part, had a love/hate relationship with German culture. Though they suffered, many had been raised to regard things like German music and literature as the pinnacle of western civilization. It is somewhat remarkable that it took less than 20 years to establish official relations between the two.
You’ve completely digressed from the point here. The theory of the Dominion and Cardassians formulating an alliance after the founders discovered their plan for genocide is improbable. In human history no two races, where one has committed genocide on the level theroised in a TV show has never happened and will never happen. Germany and Israel our seperate nations. Your using a seperate but similar example that doesn’t add up.
 
Garak is a very calculating guy; he'd be able to switch allegiances.

Kira is a bit more problematic and she was very militant in protecting Ziyal. I might not have her killing Damar exactly but linking up with Damar should've perplexed Kira much more than it did I feel.
Garek is a calculated man, but his excile and his love for Ziyal may have changed him and made him irrational, like going to rescue Tain twice. One on the Romulan bridge and two in the prison. Garek im DS9 is one of my favourite characters. Kira and Damar never got along, she even contemplated killing him once for just grabbing Ziyal, she just punished him instead. I think she would kill him.
 
Garak is a very calculating guy; he'd be able to adjust.

Kira is a bit more problematic and she was very militant in protecting Ziyal. I might not have her killing Damar exactly but linking up with Damar should've perplexed Kira much more than it did I feel.

Yeah, maybe, but I felt Kira did fight with the Cardassians and Damar in particular enough and she demonstrated how she realized that it wasn't helping their situation, showing some maturity and growth on her part. Particularly when Damar is incredulous that the Dominion would start killing innocent women and children and Kira replies sarcastically - clearly referencing him specifically and all of Cardassia in general for those same crimes.
 
The question is how would the majority of people react. ould they engage in an act of revenge potentially risking the life of billions if not trillions because of that act?

You’ve completely digressed from the point here. The theory of the Dominion and Cardassians formulating an alliance after the founders discovered their plan for genocide is improbable. In human history no two races, where one has committed genocide on the level theroised in a TV show has never happened and will never happen. Germany and Israel our seperate nations. Your using a seperate but similar example that doesn’t add up.

The Dominion could simply have been using the Cardassians as a means to an end, to bring their version of order to the galaxy. Once they had done that they could have taken care of the Cardassians.
 
You’ve completely digressed from the point here. The theory of the Dominion and Cardassians formulating an alliance after the founders discovered their plan for genocide is improbable. In human history no two races, where one has committed genocide on the level theroised in a TV show has never happened and will never happen. Germany and Israel our seperate nations. Your using a seperate but similar example that doesn’t add up.

The Dominion was just using Cardassia. They had every intention of destroying Cardassia at the end of the war, even if they won the war. That's my belief based on what the Female Changling told Garak.
 
@Savage Dragon The word ‘inept’ is totally acceptable it means incompetent. The way I used the word was the reply was inept not the person. If I am wrong would you please post a link to the forum rules regarding the use of the English language. @Bad Thoughts strongly suggested that I not use the word inept, one can easily extrapolate that a threat is behind this strong suhgestion. So I asked him not to make suhgestions to me. Unless I’m missing something and I have started a row in other ways, if so please explain. I think emotions ran roo high, but they are not from me. Thanks for the advice re spam.

Yes, your use of the word inept was completely within the letter of the law, but I think it is pretty easy to see how this kind of language could be seen as inflammatory which is no doubt what Bad Thoughts was getting at. You may have correctly targeted the reply with the comment, but it is easy to see how it could be taken personally by the poster. Posting on a BBS lacks the nuances of face-to-face interactions so it is easy to take offence where none was intended. Please just keep this in mind.

Now, this really is making a mountain out of molehill so I am going to bow out now so that you can all continue the discussion.
 
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