DS9 Inconsistencies

[Bad Thoughts]

The Breen come in at the end, once the war was being lost. And, they don’t replace the Cardassians. Replacing the Cardissians would be impossible, that’s why they choose a new lame duck leader. Your third point is inept no alliance in the history of our world has ever been former after attempting genicide that is similar to that of the alliance struck by te Cardassians and Dominion. Point 2 is the inconsistency In talkinh about, they would’ve form allies, they conquer.

First, the Breen started replacing the Cardassians at least as early as Strange Bedfellows, a fact Damar acknowledges in Changing Face of Evil. Second, the Germans were in a covert war with the Soviet Union in the 1920s (see Freikorps), fighting communists and giving aid to various groups in the Russian Civil War. The alliance between Germany and the Soviet Union came after more than a decade of Hitler claiming Soviet land as properly Germany and claiming that Germany would eliminate the Soviet Union. Third, I strenuously recommend you do not use the word "Inept."

 

[Calum Gore]

First, the Breen started replacing the Cardassians at least as early as Strange Bedfellows, a fact Damar acknowledges in Changing Face of Evil. Second, the Germans were in a covert war with the Soviet Union in the 1920s (see Freikorps), fighting communists and giving aid to various groups in the Russian Civil War. The alliance between Germany and the Soviet Union came after more than a decade of Hitler claiming Soviet land as properly Germany and claiming that Germany would eliminate the Soviet Union. Third, I strenuously recommend you do not use the word "Inept."

Using the word inept is entirely appropriate in this debate. And, I will use it when I deem it appropriate. The breen joined the alliance and in return the Cardassians are told to make certain territorial concessions. The Cardassians still have a leader and fight in the war. How, is that being replaced. And, the breen don’t enter the alliance until late in season 7. And, are you really suggesting that the Germans were trying to use genicide against the whole of the Russian people in the covert war in 1920. That is not even a comparison. I would ask you only once not to make suggestions to me again unless my language is abusive. Thank you good sir.

 

[Timo]

Boy, aren't you a piece of work. Learing some manners might be a survival skill.

I don’t think you can compare the two. After WWI reparations and restrictions were imposed on Germany, which ultimately led to one mans position obtaining power and starting WWII. You cannot blame the whole country, nor the soldiers, are you familar with Stanley Millgrams work. The Dominion were a technologically advanced, powerful and had vast space.

What are you babbling about? The Nazis said one thing and did another. The Dominion is observed doing the same. That's as far as it goes. But if one for some reason wants to make the two cases more analogous, one need just point out that they are. Neither Nazi Germany nor Founder Dominion were hands-down winners in the wars they opted to have; their reasons for being disingenuous about the practical effects of their ideological goals could be identical.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Using the word inept is entirely appropriate in this debate.

It is inflammatory.

The breen joined the alliance and in return the Cardassians are told to make certain territorial concessions. The Cardassians still have a leader and fight in the war. How, is that being replaced. And, the breen don’t enter the alliance until late in season 7.

According to Damar, "we're no longer masters in our own home. Travel anywhere in Cardassia and what do you find? Jem'Hadar, Vorta and now Breen. Instead of the invaders, we have become the invaded. Our allies have conquered us without firing a shot." Perhaps his opinions are up for debate, but that was nevertheless the opinion of Cardassia's leader.

And, are you really suggesting that the Germans were trying to use genicide against the whole of the Russian people in the covert war in 1920. That is not even a comparison.

Lebensraum was ethnic cleansing.

I would ask you only once not to make suggestions to me again unless my language is abusive.

There are remedies for that.

 

[Calum Gore]

Using the word inept is entirely appropriate in this debate. And, I will use it when I deem it appropriate. The breen joined the alliance and in return the Cardassians are told to make certain territorial concessions. The Cardassians still have a leader and fight in the war. How, is that being replaced. And, the breen don’t enter the alliance until late in season 7. And, are you really suggesting that the Germans were trying to use genicide against the whole of the Russian people in the covert war in 1920. That is not even a comparison. I would ask you only once not to make suggestions to me again unless my language is abusive. Thank you good sir.

My statement was no alliance has been formed in the history of this world where one race has attempted to wipe out another that is like the Cardassians and Dominion. You quoted a covert war in 1920 that had three aspects to it. So I’m afraid the point you’re making is inept. I see this as a debate, you seem fairly reactive.

 

[Calum Gore]

It is inflammatory.


According to Damar, "we're no longer masters in our own home. Travel anywhere in Cardassia and what do you find? Jem'Hadar, Vorta and now Breen. Instead of the invaders, we have become the invaded. Our allies have conquered us without firing a shot." Perhaps his opinions are up for debate, but that was nevertheless the opinion of Cardassia's leader.


Lebensraum was ethnic cleansing.




There are remedies for that.

That’s Damar’a corrext opinion, howevee the bulk of the Cardiassans are still in war and they fight the federation and klingons. Inept is not inflammatory, It’s used in debates all the time. Yes, Lebensraum was ethnic cleansing, but he was not trying to wipe out a whole race, and the germans were in a covert war. It was long after the Russians and Germans formed and alliance thay the germans incolvement was known. I don’t use profanity, so you they’ll no need for your remedies. You are really quite entertaining.

 

[Calum Gore]

Boy, aren't you a piece of work. Learing some manners might be a survival skill.



What are you babbling about? The Nazis said one thing and did another. The Dominion is observed doing the same. That's as far as it goes. But if one for some reason wants to make the two cases more analogous, one need just point out that they are. Neither Nazi Germany nor Founder Dominion were hands-down winners in the wars they opted to have; their reasons for being disingenuous about the practical effects of their ideological goals could be identical.

Timo Saloniemi

I have used manners. It is you that is being reactive and aggressive. Again your an entertaining person, providimg much amusement. I knew I would enjoy this blog. What you are saying about war “In war everyone loses” you are just making obvious statements. And, no one has mentioned the Nazis on this thread until now. Please try your best not to call me boy, but id you do I forgive the insult.

 

[Calum Gore]

I have used manners. It is you that is being reactive and aggressive. Again your an entertaining person, providing much amusement. I knew I would enjoy this blog. What you are saying about war “In war everyone loses” you are just making obvious statements. And, no one has mentioned the Nazis on this thread until now. Please try your best not to call me boy, but I do you forgive for the insult.

 

[Calum Gore]

Actually somone has used germans im WWII my apologises my dear debater

 

[Bad Thoughts]

No sovereign government ever used genocide as an act of war against another nation in full possession of its sovereignty. The closest is Nazi Germany in the Soviet Union. The only evidence of what one nation would do after such an act can only be discussed in terms of relative cases. If the OP won't admit them, his question is utterly rhetorical, and it can be dismissed out of hand.

 

[TheSeeker]

Alright folks, lets try to keep things civil in here.

@Calum Gore , there are multiple instances of you making 4 or 5 post in a row in this thread. As a new poster you may not be aware that this can be considered spamming. Please use the multi-quote button if you would like to address multiple posts. It is the + Quote button which can be found next to the reply button.

Thanks.

 

[Calum Gore]

@Savage Dragon I will use the quote button in future threads, if I create thread or reply to a post. My original question was civil and with the goal of pointing out what I believed to be inconsistencies with DS9. I am new to the forum, but I’m certainly not new to debating and picking up passive aggressive replies with sarcasm. @Timo said “boy are a piece of work”. That is a harsh statement and I didn’t react because I did not let emotion cloud my original post. I have been nothing but polite on this thread. If a debate cannot be had on this thread and the use of manners, whats the use of this forum. I have not used profanity, called anyone out. The word ‘inept’ is totally acceptable it means incompetent. The way I used the word was the reply was inept not the person. If I am wrong would you please post a link to the forum rules regarding the use of the English language. @Bad Thoughts strongly suggested that I not use the word inept, one can easily extrapolate that a threat is behind this strong suhgestion. So I asked him not to make suhgestions to me. Unless I’m missing something and I have started a row in other ways, if so please explain. I think emotions ran roo high, but they are not from me. Thanks for the advice re spam.

 

[Calum Gore]

@Bad Thoughts exactly no sovereign government has used ‘genocide’ in the history of our world, so you can compare it to a fictional series where two empires form an alliance where one has tried to commit genocide. Writers base the start of their writing on real world events and lead off from there with their imagination. It’s just like a good lie, It starts with a sliver of truth.

 

[Ometiklan]

He’s another inconsistent variable. Dumar murders Ziyal. Kira an ex terrorist and good field officer and Garek a cunning and brilliant spy and assasin are sent to help Dumar. After he killed someone they both loved. Especially in war revenge takes over. They would of killed Dumar.

I am starting to think you don't understand the meaning of inconsistency (a close cousin to plot hole). If either Garak or Kira vowed to kill Damar next time they met, and upon meeting him didn't try to kill him and it wasn't otherwise addressed, then yes that would be a inconsistency. But that is not what happened. Garak being a patriot and an effective spy and Kira being an effective military officer, each recognized that Damar was their best hope for rescuing Cardassia from the Dominion and saving the alpha quadrant, respectively, so they put off any thought of revenge to pursue the more important objectives. (There was even a whole discussion about the appropriateness and irony of Kira assisting her former oppressors in their liberation, so the writers certainly weren't oblivious to the inherent conflict of these "strange bedfellows".) If Damar had lived past the end of the war, I am sure one or the other would have tried to kill Damar (probably Garak). As presented, there was no inconsistency.

Slightly sarcastic and passive aggressive. 40 ships 20 from each power is a drop in the ocean to the millitary powers of both Cardassia and the Romulans. They rebuild ships and have billions in there respective empires. I’m certain you saw the fleets of ships both sides created and the millions that died at the end of the season. There were far more than 40 ships and 20/40,000 loyal officers and crewman.

First of all, if you are tying to say that I was sarcastic and passive aggressive in my response, I was neither. I tried to straight up respond to your divergent responses/claims.

I will try once more: again, at no point was I claiming that the Dominion did anything to harm, hurt, or wipe out any of the military forces of either the Cardassians or the Romulans. Based on the Founder's dialog in "The Die is Cast" the Founders were primarily concerned with the intelligence agencies of those two enemy empires. They apparently did not feel that the governments and militaries alone were a significant threat. The 40 ships lost in the battle were produced, controlled, and staffed solely by intel agents (based on the total lack of knowledge of the operation of the Cardassian military). So, even if the military forces number in the millions for these powers, that has no relation to the number of intel agents killed. The intel services are in all likelihood much smaller in number and, at least for the Obsidian Order, have very limited military equipment (and by law the Obsidian Order should have none). A loss of 20-40,000 intel officers including some portion of their leadership (given Tain's presence in the fleet there probably were additional intel leaders present on other ships, and the assassinations that occurred prior to the attack) would severely hamper the effectiveness of those intel agencies. That was the Founder's plan, and that is what they executed. The Cardassians never posed a threat to them again. And the Romulans were sidestepped by a non-aggression pact until Sisko got them re-involved. Hopefully, these points are clear.

 

[MacLeod]

He’s another inconsistent variable. Dumar murders Ziyal. Kira an ex terrorist and good field officer and Garek a cunning and brilliant spy and assasin are sent to help Dumar. After he killed someone they both loved. Especially in war revenge takes over. They would of killed Dumar.

I would have thought the opposite is true, a desire for rvenege would take a back seat to the more immeniant threat.

The old saying comes to mind. "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend"

Both Kira and Garak aren't fools, they might find working with Damar distasteful but they would realise the goal of defeating the Dominion was more important than their feelings.

 

[MacLeod]

@Bad Thoughts exactly no sovereign government has used ‘genocide’ in the history of our world, so you can compare it to a fictional series where two empires form an alliance where one has tried to commit genocide. Writers base the start of their writing on real world events and lead off from there with their imagination. It’s just like a good lie, It starts with a sliver of truth.

What about the Nazi's? Didn't they engage in attempted genocide against the Jews.

 

[Calum Gore]

I am starting to think you don't understand the meaning of inconsistency (a close cousin to plot hole). If either Garak or Kira vowed to kill Damar next time they met, and upon meeting him didn't try to kill him and it wasn't otherwise addressed, then yes that would be a inconsistency. But that is not what happened. Garak being a patriot and an effective spy and Kira being an effective military officer, each recognized that Damar was their best hope for rescuing Cardassia from the Dominion and saving the alpha quadrant, respectively, so they put off any thought of revenge to pursue the more important objectives. (There was even a whole discussion about the appropriateness and irony of Kira assisting her former oppressors in their liberation, so the writers certainly weren't oblivious to the inherent conflict of these "strange bedfellows".) If Damar had lived past the end of the war, I am sure one or the other would have tried to kill Damar (probably Garak). As presented, there was no inconsistency.



First of all, if you are tying to say that I was sarcastic and passive aggressive in my response, I was neither. I tried to straight up respond to your divergent responses/claims.

I will try once more: again, at no point was I claiming that the Dominion did anything to harm, hurt, or wipe out any of the military forces of either the Cardassians or the Romulans. Based on the Founder's dialog in "The Die is Cast" the Founders were primarily concerned with the intelligence agencies of those two enemy empires. They apparently did not feel that the governments and militaries alone were a significant threat. The 40 ships lost in the battle were produced, controlled, and staffed solely by intel agents (based on the total lack of knowledge of the operation of the Cardassian military). So, even if the military forces number in the millions for these powers, that has no relation to the number of intel agents killed. The intel services are in all likelihood much smaller in number and, at least for the Obsidian Order, have very limited military equipment (and by law the Obsidian Order should have none). A loss of 20-40,000 intel officers including some portion of their leadership (given Tain's presence in the fleet there probably were additional intel leaders present on other ships, and the assassinations that occurred prior to the attack) would severely hamper the effectiveness of those intel agencies. That was the Founder's plan, and that is what they executed. The Cardassians never posed a threat to them again. And the Romulans were sidestepped by a non-aggression pact until Sisko got them re-involved. Hopefully, these points are clear.

I wonder, if you have ever been in a war before and have lost a loved one by the enemy, and then you are forced to work alongside that person who took your loved from you. Even in war revenge takes precedent, and as I said before a good writer starts with a sliver of experience and truth, not to mention the human condition and uses their imagination going through the rest of the story. If Garek was going to kill 'Damar' he wouldn't make no vows. Only a fool makes a vow (either in the presence of the party or others) pre-warning any enemy or combatant that they are going to do harm to them, and Garek is no fool. Kira, is an emotional officer who is still haunted by her past, a Cardassian killing Ziyal would of caused a major reaction. I'm not basing the inconsistencies on someone making a pointless vow but on the characters of the show. It is logical for them to set aside there feelings about the death of Ziyal, however this was not in their character.

I'm not diverting away from my original point, and you were being passive aggressive and sarcastic. Let's just think about intelligence agents here, their main purpose is gathering intelligence and they are covert about it. Are the intelligence agencies suppose to have military equipment, as per standing orders, no. But, they are covert, we know both agencies had military forces before the episode the die is cast. If you believe that all the leaders of each agency were in the fleet, you must not know how intelligence agencies work. We know both agencies survive after the attack (Gul Dukat mentioned in The Way of the Warrior and Voyager shows in Message in a bottle). The founders did not engineer the plan, they found out about it and aided it along, so it wasn't a grand plan but an opportunity to wipe out a small force, ineffectively, the better opportunity would be to start a war with both powers in the Alpha quadrant for coming up with the plan in the first place. The Cardassians had the Klingons to worry about, so made an alliance with the Dominion, out of necessity. The Romulans sat back and waited to see who won, the normal mo. I hope these points clarify my position, which don't need to be your position.

 

[Calum Gore]

What about the Nazi's? Didn't they engage in attempted genocide against the Jews.

Of course they did, but you don't see Jews and the Germans in a military alliance together. For example that would be like Germany and Israel being under one government.

 

[Calum Gore]

I would have thought the opposite is true, a desire for rvenege would take a back seat to the more immeniant threat.

The old saying comes to mind. "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend"

Both Kira and Garak aren't fools, they might find working with Damar distasteful but they would realise the goal of defeating the Dominion was more important than their feelings.

I disagree, Garek and Kira would not set their feelings aside, they both loved Ziyal. Garek a brilliant spy would assassinate Damar probably long before season 7. Would Kira and emotional officer be able to control her feelings. I don't buy it, but that's your view, doesn't need to be mine.

 

[Ometiklan]

I wonder, if you have ever been in a war before and have lost a loved one by the enemy, and then you are forced to work alongside that person who took your loved from you. Even in war revenge takes precedent, and as I said before a good writer starts with a sliver of experience and truth, not to mention the human condition and uses their imagination going through the rest of the story. If Garek was going to kill 'Damar' he wouldn't make no vows. Only a fool makes a vow (either in the presence of the party or others) pre-warning any enemy or combatant that they are going to do harm to them, and Garek is no fool. Kira, is an emotional officer who is still haunted by her past, a Cardassian killing Ziyal would of caused a major reaction. I'm not basing the inconsistencies on someone making a pointless vow but on the characters of the show. It is logical for them to set aside there feelings about the death of Ziyal, however this was not in their character.

So is your contention, that anytime any character, A, who would plot revenge is forced to be present with another character, B, who killed someone who A loved, it is inconsistent that A would not always kill B? I don't agree. Yes, starting with a sliver of experience and truth is a good thing, but not all such interactions would lead to revenge murder. That is why it isn't an inconsistency: just because a character is capable of it and willing to do it, and just because it might happen in these circumstances, it is not required to happen. That is why I posed the hypothetical of the "vow". With a vow there would be an inconsistency if the conditions of the vow were met, but the vow wasn't carried out. And I agree, for pure effectiveness Garak wouldn't make a public vow if it would decrease his chance of succeeding, it was just a hypothetical - Kira, however, would make a vow cause she doesn't "give a damn" about what others think.

I'm not diverting away from my original point, and you were being passive aggressive and sarcastic. Let's just think about intelligence agents here, their main purpose is gathering intelligence and they are covert about it. Are the intelligence agencies suppose to have military equipment, as per standing orders, no. But, they are covert, we know both agencies had military forces before the episode the die is cast. If you believe that all the leaders of each agency were in the fleet, you must not know how intelligence agencies work. We know both agencies survive after the attack (Gul Dukat mentioned in The Way of the Warrior and Voyager shows in Message in a bottle). The founders did not engineer the plan, they found out about it and aided it along, so it wasn't a grand plan but an opportunity to wipe out a small force, ineffectively, the better opportunity would be to start a war with both powers in the Alpha quadrant for coming up with the plan in the first place. The Cardassians had the Klingons to worry about, so made an alliance with the Dominion, out of necessity. The Romulans sat back and waited to see who won, the normal mo. I hope these points clarify my position, which don't need to be your position.

First, please point to any point where I was passive aggressive or sarcastic. I straight up asked a question of 'so what if their intel agencies weren't wiped out?' and argued that they were severely damaged. That is neither passive aggressive or sarcastic. But getting back to the real point...

At no point did I claim that I "believe that all the leaders of each agency were in the fleet". I said that some additional leaders must have been in the fleet, to command the other ships, and some were lost to assassinations preceding the attack. The loss of a lot of agents and some senior leadership significantly impaired the agencies going forward.

And you don't have much support for claiming the plan was not a "grand plan". It wasn't the Dominion's entire strategy for the alpha quadrant, but the Founder certainly considered it an effective way to eliminate two rival powers, and Tain and Garak seemed impressed by it. And as I have pointed out, Cardassia was never a threat to the Dominion after that point, so it appears to have been effective on them. That can't be disputed.