David Mack is GUSHING about it...this should settle it

[donners22]

'actual direct remake with more contrivances, boobs, and explosions' of the previous two JJTrek films.

Without meaning to get off topic, 'remake' is such a shallow analysis of that film. Its plot, characterisation and themes are entirely different from WoK - and it executes them better than most Trek films.

As for contrivances, it's hard to have more than the absolute nonsense of the Genesis Device, the Reliant crew failing to notice that an entire plane is missing while surveying its system or five-digit codes disabling starships (among others).

David Mack has written amazing Novels.

That's subjective. Destiny was recommended to me as a "masterpiece". I thought it was dreadful. As such, I share unimatrix7's scepticism on that point.

 

[Noname Given]

None of that matters, at least when it comes to forming my opinion. Who gives a shit what their crappy character arcs are? That's not the show. the giant fuck you that are the "klingons", the designs, the second secret sibling of spock, the shittiness of most of the actors and all the people in charge are the show. I don't need to know the specifics of the crap story. I know how they've fucked over the klingons and Trek in general, anything else is just putrid icing on the shit cake that is STD, initials that are also completely descriptive to what this show is to the Star Trek franchise. Hopefully its one that goes away without killing the infected.

Um, it's not Sept 20, 1987 -- TNG premiered and had it's run. It not necessary to go over the big FU's to TOS fans of having a f%$king Klingon on the Bridge (what would Kirk say to that?) of a Federation ship or that the majority of the TNG charcters are/were transplanted from ST:TMP:
- Cmdr. William Riker = Cmdr. William Decker
- Couselor Troi = Lt. Ilia

or failed TV pilots:
- Data = The Andoid (from the failed GR pilot "The Questor Tapes" [ Yeah, Google it]

or ripped of from the popular film 'Aliens':
- Lt. Tasha Yar (Hot-headed security officer) is a clear rip off of Pvt. Vasquez from ALIENS (released in 1986 just a year prior.)

And in the 24th Century you're telling me they can't cure blindness so we get:
- Lt. Geordi LaForge -- whose Hi-Tech Visor looks like a 10 year old girl's Hair Clip

And the Captain...again, in the 24th Century they can't cure male-pattern-baldness?
- Captain Jean-Lu-Picard
^^^
Tell me please - what casting genius decided to cast a British actor with a clear and pronounced British accent to play a Frenchman. What do they think Star Trek fans are so stupid they won't be able to tell?

And lastly - What has deep space exploration become so routine and safe that Star Fleet says: "Hey...married? Bring the Wife, the kids and the Family pet along with on your tour of duty; it's PERFECTLY SAFE..."
^^^
Again, what kind of idiots do they think Star Trek fans are that they'll accept something as ridiculous as that? TNG won't be Star Trek, it'll be Family Ties (don't know/remember it - Google it too )
.
.
.
DOH! - My bad, sorry - it seems I was having a flashback to Star Trek fan reaction just before the 1987 premiere of ST:TNG nearly 30 years ago...my bad

 

[Nerys Myk]

DOH! - My bad, sorry - it seems I was having a flashback to Star Trek fan reaction just before the 1987 premiere of ST:TNG nearly 30 years ago...my bad

You need to lay off the LDS.

 

[Pure Antiproton]

Speaking of big Star Trek Discovery parties without opposing opinions, I'm having one Sunday at my house.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

Um, it's not Sept 20, 1987 -- TNG premiered and had it's run. It not necessary to go over the big FU's to TOS fans of having a f%$king Klingon on the Bridge (what would Kirk say to that?) of a Federation ship or that the majority of the TNG charcters are/were transplanted from ST:TMP:
- Cmdr. William Riker = Cmdr. William Decker
- Couselor Troi = Lt. Ilia

or failed TV pilots:
- Data = The Andoid (from the failed GR pilot "The Questor Tapes" [ Yeah, Google it]

or ripped of from the popular film 'Aliens':
- Lt. Tasha Yar (Hot-headed security officer) is a clear rip off of Pvt. Vasquez from ALIENS (released in 1986 just a year prior.)

And in the 24th Century you're telling me they can't cure blindness so we get:
- Lt. Geordi LaForge -- whose Hi-Tech Visor looks like a 10 year old girl's Hair Clip

And the Captain...again, in the 24th Century they can't cure male-pattern-baldness?
- Captain Jean-Lu-Picard
^^^
Tell me please - what casting genius decided to cast a British actor with a clear and pronounced British accent to play a Frenchman. What do they think Star Trek fans are so stupid they won't be able to tell?

And lastly - What has deep space exploration become so routine and safe that Star Fleet says: "Hey...married? Bring the Wife, the kids and the Family pet along with on your tour of duty; it's PERFECTLY SAFE..."
^^^
Again, what kind of idiots do they think Star Trek fans are that they'll accept something as ridiculous as that? TNG won't be Star Trek, it'll be Family Ties (don't know/remember it - Google it too )
.
.
.
DOH! - My bad, sorry - it seems I was having a flashback to Star Trek fan reaction just before the 1987 premiere of ST:TNG nearly 30 years ago...my bad

He's funny, and he'll keep us honest. Whether he's being 100% honest or being a brilliant parody of your average nerdraging Midnight's Wedge Doug Fitz acolyte, I really get a kick out of his posts.

 

[The Wormhole]

Not necessarily, as shown by the example of Diane Carey cited earlier.

Kor

Although it should be noted that Diane Carey hasn't written another Trek novel since then.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Small favors

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

Although it should be noted that Diane Carey hasn't written another Trek novel since then.

After a long and celebrated career. I don't know why she never did another but she might simply have retired.

That said, while there probably are not any other examples as blatant as that, it does show that the novelists don't see their careers as hinging on the show's success, nor do they necessarily promote the show as a method of selling their books.

 

[The Wormhole]

After a long and celebrated career. I don't know why she never did another but she might simply have retired.

Diane Carey is still listed as an active author on Wikipedia, though it seems her latest novels are from 2013. Regardless, it is a known fact Brannon Braga personally lodged a complaint with Pocket Books about her over the Broken Bow novelization. He even talks about it on the Enterprise blu-rays. It's not a coincidence that was her last Trek novel.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

Diane Carey is still listed as an active author on Wikipedia, though it seems her latest novels are from 2013. Regardless, it is a known fact Brannon Braga personally lodged a complaint with Pocket Books about her over the Broken Bow novelization. He even talks about it on the Enterprise blu-rays. It's not a coincidence that was her last Trek novel.

My second point still stands.

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm not going away because some people seem to want the forum to just be one big Discovery party with no opposing opinions. Its technically Star Trek (although only by the barest of technicalities), so I'm going to discuss it. Its the biggest trainwreck in the franchise's history, that's something you pay attention to. Well, at least I do because I frequently watch crap if it has a connection to things I actually like.

Wow, I'm sensing a heart attack in your future, and I'm not even the death sensing species in Discovery. Life is too short man. Focus on what you like. Arguing about something as trivial as a TV show just to make a point of how much you dislike it is not wise. The people who do like it will continue to like it no matter what you say. So, it's futile.

Consider focusing your energy on something more productive.

 

[fireproof78]

Wow, I'm sensing a heart attack in your future, and I'm not even the death sensing species in Discovery. Life is too short man. Focus on what you like. Arguing about something as trivial as a TV show just to make a point of how much you dislike it is not wise. The people who do like it will continue to like it no matter what you say. So, it's futile.

Consider focusing your energy on something more productive.

I share the sentiment but I also know

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Who gives a shit what their crappy character arcs are? That's not the show. the giant fuck you that are the "klingons", the designs, the shittiness of most of the actors and all the people in charge are the show. I don't need to know the specifics of the crap story. I know how they've fucked over the klingons and Trek in general, anything else is just putrid icing on the shit cake that is STD, initials that are also completely descriptive to what this show is to the Star Trek franchise. Hopefully its one that goes away without killing the infected.

I'm not going away because some people seem to want the forum to just be one big Discovery party with no opposing opinions. Its technically Star Trek (although only by the barest of technicalities), so I'm going to discuss it. Its the biggest trainwreck in the franchise's history, that's something you pay attention to. Well, at least I do because I frequently watch crap if it has a connection to things I actually like.

You're entitled to your negative opinion, but your attitude, wording, and tone is toxic and non-conducive to reasonable discussion. When you act like this you bring down the entire level of discourse and make people want to either mock you or yell at you rather than have a conversation about your underlying opinion (once you get past all the insults and ranting and exaggeration that it's buried under). I and other mods have told you to dial back the rhetoric numerous times now and you —to your credit— have apologized and said you would do that each time. But then you go right back to acting the same way again the next day.

You can express a negative opinion about the show and the cast & crew without being so crass and hyperbolic about it. And I think you will find that if you do that you would not be poisoning the well so much and might actually get some reasonable back and forth dialogue with people who both agree and disagree with you. As it stands your over-the-top behavior just turns everything into the K5's show and makes the discussion more about you and not the subject matter of the thread. Please make an effort to change that ASAP, because frankly I've kind of had it with telling you this over and over again.

 

[tenmei]

After having my second item of the fortnight getting 'stuck at dispatch' with Amazon UK, I'm starting to loose hope of getting Desperate Hours on release day - which I'd booked off specifically to dive into it.

 

[unimatrix7]

David Mack has written amazing Novels.

Nearly all of which are Star Trek. There's 'amazing,' and then there's 'amazing...for Star Trek.' Which do you think his work falls under? I'd be dead keen to read a Star Trek novel that isn't rubbish, but I've yet to find one and so am happy to hear your recommendations

 

[Tuskin38]

Nearly all of which are Star Trek. There's 'amazing,' and then there's 'amazing...for Star Trek.' Which do you think his work falls under? I'd be dead keen to read a Star Trek novel that isn't rubbish, but I've yet to find one and so am happy to hear your recommendations

Vanguard series (along with the two Seekers books), his Mirror Universe novels, his two Section 31 stories and the Cold Equations trilogy.

 

[Sci]

Yes. We're lucky he writes fiction that CBS charges ten dollars a pop for.

$8.99 was the cost of the last Star Trek novel I bought, which is less than the typical cost of a movie ticket (around $14.00 anymore), and is actually less than the cost of a Chipotle burrito.

None of that matters, at least when it comes to forming my opinion. Who gives a shit what their crappy character arcs are? That's not the show.

Characters are always the show. Everything else is just claptrap.

I'm not going away because some people seem to want the forum to just be one big Discovery party with no opposing opinions.

How shocking that Star Trek fans on a Star Trek BBS want to enjoy Star Trek without someone shitting on it.

Its technically Star Trek (although only by the barest of technicalities)

Being that it is Star Trek and is made by Star Trek's owner.

Without meaning to get off topic, 'remake' is such a shallow analysis of that film. Its plot, characterisation and themes are entirely different from WoK - and it executes them better than most Trek films.

Totally agreed. Star Trek Into Darkness certainly has its problems -- not the least of which being the decision to whitewash such a prominent non-white character -- but its plot bears almost no resemblance to The Wrath of Khan.

That's subjective. Destiny was recommended to me as a "masterpiece". I thought it was dreadful. As such, I share unimatrix7's scepticism on that point.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I honestly don't know how you can read about Erika's time in captivity and not find it beautifully moving and heartbreaking. That part speaks to me in so many ways, about how we as human beings tend to create our own cages.

Wow, I'm sensing a heart attack in your future, and I'm not even the death sensing species in Discovery.

The first time kirk55555 came to my attention, IIRC, was when there was a big discussion over a Season Two arc on Agents of SHIELD. As I recall, the big discussion was whether or not Jemma Simmons was irredeemably bigoted and whether or not the alternate SHIELD faction was utterly evil and fascistic in all ways; kirk55555 assured me in the angriest, harshest tones possible that the SHIELD faction led by Edward James Olmos's character was pure evil and probably kicked puppies for fun, that Jemma was irredeemable, and seemed to think that anyone who felt sympathy for these characters was the mental equivalent of a Flat Earther.

Kirk55555 just has really disproportionate reactions to other people enjoying television programs without permission.

Nearly all of which are Star Trek. There's 'amazing,' and then there's 'amazing...for Star Trek.' Which do you think his work falls under? I'd be dead keen to read a Star Trek novel that isn't rubbish, but I've yet to find one and so am happy to hear your recommendations

I think David Mack is an excellent novelist.

A good intro to his style is actually his first solo novel, Wildfire, written as part of the Star Trek: Corps of Engineers series. He tends to write action-oriented thrillers that deal with important themes related to the inevitability of death, finding meaning in life, often with a political subtext and concern over finding the morally right course of action in ambiguous circumstances. Wildfire is a deeply moving novel about sacrifice and compassion. I highly recommend it.

Other works of his I would recommend:

• Reap the Whirlwind (2007, third entry in the Star Trek: Vanguard series)
• The Sorrows of Empire (2009, part of the Star Trek: Mirror Universe series)
• Destiny trilogy (2008):
  • Gods of Night
  • Mere Mortals
  • Lost Souls
• Zero Sum Game (2010, part of the Star Trek: Typhon Pact series)
• Rise Like Lions (2011, follow-up to The Sorrows of Empire and finale to the Mirror Universe series)
• A Ceremony of Losses (2013, book three in the Star Trek: The Fall series)
• Control (2017, finale to the Star Trek: Section 31 series)

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

$8.99 was the cost of the last Star Trek novel I bought, which is less than the typical cost of a movie ticket (around $14.00 anymore), and is actually less than the cost of a Chipotle burrito.

Don't you know that we're not supposed to pay for Star Trek? Apparently not only are all series supposed to only air on regular network TV, but you're also not supposed to pay for novels. And I guess by extension, comics, movies, DVD/BluRay sets, games, reference guides, etc., should also be free. This is great! Once CBS realizes this, I'll never have to spend money on entertainment again! Why would I, when literally every other piece of entertainment costs money, but not Star Trek! It's free! Or supposed to be.

Characters are always the show. Everything else is just claptrap.



How shocking that Star Trek fans on a Star Trek BBS want to enjoy Star Trek without someone shitting on it.



Being that it is Star Trek and is made by Star Trek's owner.

I admire your effort, but we're not dealing with rationality here. Most of the users on this site are level-headed, rational and open to reason. Some of them like what they've seen from DSC so far, several more are less than impressed even to the point of already feeling like it's let them down. But they're not frothing at the mouth. Speak to them reasonably and they'll respond reasonably. I'd rather talk to them.

(And yes, I know that my excitement level for the show has come off as being like Kirk55555 from the other side, but I trust that most have come to understand that I mainly just want us to stop judging it before we've watched it. I will repeat; if this show is bad, I won't pretend it isn't, though I understand that what we all perceive as bad and good might not be the same thing; personally I don't understand how anyone could see DS9 as bad and VGR as good, but there are plenty who would be unable to understand how I could think the opposite).

Rational discussion is always good, especially if you disagree with a person, as long as the discussion can remain civil. I know I can get hot under the collar, but what really does it to me is when I perceive that the other party refuses to see any other perspective than their own. I don't know how many times I've had my own perceptions lead me astray; how many times I knew something had to be a certain way, and no matter what, I demanded that others were wrong and I was right. And I turned out to be quite wrong.

So, I don't demand agreement with me. I'll never suggest that I'm the only one who can see the truth. All I ask is that everyone here, myself included, do more than pay lip service to the idea that we could be wrong. We've seen a few trailers, most of which re-use the same footage, and for some reason we think we know all we need to. And yes, I mean both people like me, excited for the show, and others who are less so.

Kirk55555 just has really disproportionate reactions to other people enjoying television programs without permission.

And that right there is why I don't debate with him. I welcome his responses, and I truly can't wait to see what he'll say once the show starts airing, but I won't expect to be able to build any dialogue with him.

As for the rest of your post, I don't have anything specific to recommend as I have been away from the novelverse for several years, and am only just now getting back to it. I used to read any Trek novel I could get my hands on, but I got disillusioned by how the TV series would ignore them, and began to wonder what the point was, considering that they were essentially just licensed fanfic.

I think what changed was when I realized that there would be no more Trek properties getting movies or any other follow-up. There will never be a DS9, VGR or ENT movie. But there will be novels, and it will be through them and them only that I'll know what happens to these characters. Okay, sure, I worry a bit that should we ever get that 25th Century series everyone seems to want, it will negate a lot of the novelverse, but as such a series isn't even being talked about right now, I'm content to enjoy them.

And no, they're not badly written. There's not a notable drop in quality between regular fiction and Star Trek fiction, or at any rate not as a whole. Yeah, there are some real stinkers out there, but that's true of literally any genre of fiction.

I would like to know what was so dreadful about Destiny.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Don't you know that we're not supposed to pay for Star Trek? Apparently not only are all series supposed to only air on regular network TV, but you're also not supposed to pay for novels. And I guess by extension, comics, movies, DVD/BluRay sets, games, reference guides, etc., should also be free. This is great! Once CBS realizes this, I'll never have to spend money on entertainment again! Why would I, when literally every other piece of entertainment costs money, but not Star Trek! It's free! Or supposed to be.

In Soviet Russia, Star Trek pays you.

 

[fireproof78]

Totally agreed. Star Trek Into Darkness certainly has its problems -- not the least of which being the decision to whitewash such a prominent non-white character -- but its plot bears almost no resemblance to The Wrath of Khan.

Exactly on about the plot. The change of Khan's race annoys me, and, in my opinion, John Harrison would have served as a fine villain. But, the idea that it's a "rip off" of TWOK holds no weight.