Lorca: Fans Will Have To Adjust

[kirk55555]

And don't you think many fans have been overly hostile, arrogant and showing a bad attitude? Which might be what annoyed him? This isn't a one-way street.

Then he shouldn't do franchise shows. To be clear, I don't support people harassing actors, but taking it out on all fans is uncalled for. He obviously has the wrong attitude to work on the show. But, that is the same with almost every single person working on the show. 99% of them shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Star Trek, but most of them don't go around directly being assholes to fans (I mean, a lot of their work is an insult, but they're not literally going up to them and insulting them).

Some fans are going to be jackasses. You'd think he would know that, having been part (even if its a small part) of a huge franchise before. But he's not even really reacting to that, he's just a smug prick letting his sense of superiority out. He's a arrogant jerk working on a bad show and enjoying looking down his nose at people who actually care about the franchise he's working on. Its as simple as that.

 

[Noname Given]

Then he shouldn't do franchise shows. To be clear, I don't support people harassing actors, but taking it out on all fans is uncalled for. He obviously has the wrong attitude to work on the show. But, that is the same with almost every single person working on the show. 99% of them shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Star Trek, but most of them don't go around directly being assholes to fans (I mean, a lot of their work is an insult, but they're not literally going up to them and insulting them).

Some fans are going to be jackasses. You'd think he would know that, having been part (even if its a small part) of a huge franchise before. But he's not even really reacting to that, he's just a smug prick letting his sense of superiority out. He's a arrogant jerk working on a bad show and enjoying looking down his nose at people who actually care about the franchise he's working on. Its as simple as that.

He didn't take anything out on fans. He did what we do here when we decide to post: He EXPRESSED AN OPINION. But because some fans feel those in the realm of actually producing and creating Star trek should just shut up and take whatever we have to say without comment - it seems those fans can't handle an opinion that differs from their own from someone who's actually WORKED on a licensed Star Trek production.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I wrote an article on my site about this.
(link deleted by mod)

InfiniteBatmans (great name, by the way), while the article you posted is directly relevant to the subject matter of the thread, unfortunately an inordinate number of your few posts on the board have been used to link to and promote articles on your blog. This is considered spamming. You can edit your post and paste the content of the article without the link into it if you like, but if the primary purpose of the post is to drive traffic to your blog, I'm afraid that is against the rules.

You are allowed to post a link to your blog in your signature, but from now on please don't use the posts and threads themselves to promote your blog. Thank you.

 

[Vger23]

Some fans are going to be jackasses.

Indeed!!!!

You'd think he would know that, having been part (even if its a small part) of a huge franchise before.

He absolutely understands, which is why he said what he said.

But he's not even really reacting to that, he's just a smug prick letting his sense of superiority out.

No...he is giving truthful and accurate feedback to people who need to hear it.

He's a arrogant jerk working on a bad show

On a "bad show?" If your credibility on this forum wasn't already shot wrt DSC...this should about wrap it up. And to insult him and call him an arrogant jerk because he offended you with the truth that hit really close to home is the icing on the cake.

and enjoying looking down his nose at people

No...taking the opportunity to tell people what they need to hear, but don't want to...which is an admirable and courageous act in this era of triggered and entitled brats, is what he did. And, I doubt he enjoyed it. But, it needed to be said.

who actually care about the franchise he's working on.

No, if they actually cared about the franchise he's working on, they'd be patient, spend less time being angry, and spend more time practicing what the franchise actually preaches- tolerance, patience, and assessing things in a mature and reasonable manner before jumping up and down like a buffoon with emotion and negativity.

 

[PSWallace]

So, I've read some of the comments, and I'll tell you what, about this "hatewatching":

--Dr. Who got too dark for me in 2006 or 7--plus they kept dropping in their politics as drivebys--and I haven't been back since.
--I left TNG first season of 1988 and by chance saw the third to last ep in the third season. Was worth it after that. Two weeks ago saw a third season ep for the first time. But I didn't hang with something I didn't like.
--Didn't see ST V till, I don't know, sometime in the mid-90s.
--Didn't see Nemesis till 2006. (too many fanbase references, by the way. That's what killed it. Really not a bad movie once you have watched it the first time...actually enjoy it while working out).
--Haven't seen every episode of Voyager. Being at sea helped with that one.
--Took me two years to see Phantom Menace.

So, my dear Isaacs, I'll wait and see what "Prog Trek" turns into. I have more than enough other stuff to do. Cheers.

 

[Kemaiku]

He handeled Pottershippers for years, he can handle us.

I admit, I'm both, but still.

 

[Mudd]

"Prog Trek" = Star Trek.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Which it's fine. I'm willing to accept that loss. But what you said was this:



Basically that I can't have an informed opinion about JJTrek without first having watched the films. And while that may be true in regard to the experience of watching this films, it is not true in regard to an analysis of the content of the film, which content can be acquired without watching.



That may be so. But I'm not interested in watching an "alternative" version of Kirk and crew. It just doesn't interest me.



And that's OK. I'm fine with JJTrek or Discovery being great shows by themselves. But I'm just not interested in watching Discovery if it is outside the same canon as "The Cage." I just have zero interest in it. So in that case, for me, it might as well not even be Star Trek, which is how I would probably treat it.

If you wish to not be less regarded than you are now, don't keep on saying the things that you do. And don't keep on complaining about (and hate watching) this show; stop complaining about it, stop watching it , and if possible, stop talking about it online; the wider world doesn't need to hear your foundamentalist (a person trapped at the founding moment of something, whether it be a religion or an entertainment franchise) whine about how this show isn't the 'true' Star Trek when there's no such thing, and this show doesn't have to adhere to anything like it (I'd say for you and others like you to stick to the fan productions like Phase II and Continues, but a certain somebody has completely destroyed the industry for that now, so like it or not, you're stuck with this show.) Be smart about and do something smart with your life and this fandom.

 

[Vger23]

So, I've read some of the comments, and I'll tell you what, about this "hatewatching":

--Dr. Who got too dark for me in 2006 or 7--plus they kept dropping in their politics as drivebys--and I haven't been back since.
--I left TNG first season of 1988 and by chance saw the third to last ep in the third season. Was worth it after that. Two weeks ago saw a third season ep for the first time. But I didn't hang with something I didn't like.
--Didn't see ST V till, I don't know, sometime in the mid-90s.
--Didn't see Nemesis till 2006. (too many fanbase references, by the way. That's what killed it. Really not a bad movie once you have watched it the first time...actually enjoy it while working out).
--Haven't seen every episode of Voyager. Being at sea helped with that one.
--Took me two years to see Phantom Menace.

So, my dear Isaacs, I'll wait and see what "Prog Trek" turns into. I have more than enough other stuff to do. Cheers.

I largely respect this attitude (because I'm a lot like this too) but I must say that you are certainly not the type of fan they are worried about.

They're not concerned about someone who isn't really invested. They want the already-invested or the folks who are newcomers that they can hook. They aren't any more than slightly concerned with hooking you if you're going to bail the moment things get bad or, worse, just because a couple of trailers and/or bad fandom word of mouth tell you not to watch something.

Like I said, I also subscribe to your approach, with some exceptions: I'd never allow "bad reviews" or "bad fandom word of mouth" to dictate what I watch and what I don't in a franchise I'm a fan of. I would never have delayed in viewing TFF or Phantom Menace just because a bunch of other people said it sucks. I'd much rather form my own opinion than follow the masses.

 

[mos6507]

No, if they actually cared about the franchise he's working on

Well, the reality is that while it seems glamorous and magical to us, people who work in Hollywood tend to have an "another day at the office" mentality. They're working in the sausage factory, as it were, and the "hopeful humanistic messaging" is just the stuff they're being paid to pack into the "product". You know, think Galaxy Quest.

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I'm not saying nobody in Hollywood drinks their own kool-aid, but there's a reason why Shatner agreed to do the Get a Life skit or why Nimoy wrote I am Not Spock.

The difference is that in the old days it was expected that if you do interviews you maintain your serious front, talk about how what you're doing is going to lead to world peace. But we're in an era where politeness and decorum are an endangered species (witness our President, for instance) so that's why, more and more, people in Hollywood just act like everyone else as far as being some combination of rude, self-absorbed, crude, and confrontational. You know, somewhere on the Kevin Smith spectrum.

I do miss the old days when celebrities sort of followed an unwritten rule to act sort of like royalty, never saying anything that you wouldn't want to be said around the family dinner-table, but those days are over.

 

[Vger23]

Well, the reality is that while it seems glamorous and magical to us, people who work in Hollywood tend to have an "another day at the office" mentality. They're working in the sausage factory, as it were, and the "hopeful humanistic messaging" is just the stuff they're being paid to pack into the "product". You know, think Galaxy Quest.

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I'm not saying nobody in Hollywood drinks their own kool-aid, but there's a reason why Shatner agreed to do the Get a Life skit or why Nimoy wrote I am Not Spock.

The difference is that in the old days it was expected that if you do interviews you maintain your serious front, talk about how what you're doing is going to lead to world peace. But we're in an era where politeness and decorum are an endangered species (witness our President, for instance) so that's why, more and more, people in Hollywood just act like everyone else as far as being some combination of rude, self-absorbed, crude, and confrontational. You know, somewhere on the Kevin Smith spectrum.

I do miss the old days when celebrities sort of followed an unwritten rule to act sort of like royalty, never saying anything that you wouldn't want to be said around the family dinner-table, but those days are over.

Politeness and decorum are endangered? No...you're mistaking honesty and straightforwardness with rudeness. They are two very different things, despite what you've been conditioned to believe I'm afraid. It must be easy proclaiming anything that causes discomfort to be "rude" and "insensitive," I'd imagine...rather than having it actually cause self-reflection. Gawd forbid!!! And, let's not make it political. That's taking things off-course.

Also- have you ever read "I Am Not Spock?" If you have, I don't understand the reference or the relevance of what you're saying. If you haven't you should before you cite it to support your opinions and positions.

Shatner's "Get A Life" SNL sketch was hilarious.

 

[mos6507]

Politeness and decorum are endangered? No...you're mistaking honesty and straightforwardness with rudeness.

Isaacs was absolutely right that fans will tear each other to shreds over this show. I mean, it hasn't even debuted yet and we're already entering into a meta-argument over whether politeness and decorum is endangered. Argument is the standard mode of discourse on the internet. It's just that it's become such a new normal that most people don't even think of it as course or rude.

 

[Vger23]

Isaacs was absolutely right that fans will tear each other to shreds over this show. I mean, it hasn't even debuted yet and we're already entering into a meta-argument over whether politeness and decorum is endangered. Argument is the standard mode of discourse on the internet. It's just that it's become such a new normal that most people don't even think of it as course or rude.

Isaacs was "right" about far more than that.

But, as I've said repeatedly these last several weeks...I believe the fanbase, particularly on this forum, has come LONG way in terms of outlandish negative behavior.

Still quite a ways to go...but this is downright civil compared to much of what I've seen.

 

[Noname Given]

I do miss the old days when celebrities sort of followed an unwritten rule to act sort of like royalty, never saying anything that you wouldn't want to be said around the family dinner-table, but those days are over.

Translation:
I miss the days I could just criticize whatever I wanted, however I wanted - and call an actor or producer anything I wanted to online (IE F**king idiot, or Talentless Hack); and their response would still be kind/courteous and they'd still entice me to watch the show. This era of an actor actually stating their upfront/honest opinions in response to the bile some members of fandom post is disconcerting because it means they might actually tell me how they feel about some of my comments; and my fragile Superfan ego can't really handle that.

 

[Vger23]

Translation:
I miss the days I could just criticize whatever I wanted, however I wanted - and call an actor or producer anything I wanted to online (IE F**king idiot, or Talentless Hack); and there response would still be kind/courteous and they'd still entice me to watch the show. This era of an actor actually stating their upfront/honest opinions in response to the bile some members of fandom post is disconcerting because it means they might actually tell me how they feel about some of my comments; and my fragile Superfan ego can't really handle that.

 

[Mudd]

Yep.

 

[Mudd]

Well, the reality is that while it seems glamorous and magical to us, people who work in Hollywood tend to have an "another day at the office" mentality. They're working in the sausage factory, as it were....

Where do you get this stuff? It pretty clearly reads as if you've never been anywhere near this "reality" you're going on about.

 

[Jayson1]

Translation:
I miss the days I could just criticize whatever I wanted, however I wanted - and call an actor or producer anything I wanted to online (IE F**king idiot, or Talentless Hack); and there response would still be kind/courteous and they'd still entice me to watch the show. This era of an actor actually stating their upfront/honest opinions in response to the bile some members of fandom post is disconcerting because it means they might actually tell me how they feel about some of my comments; and my fragile Superfan ego can't really handle that.

To be fair, nobody was even mad at this actor before he made his opinion be known. If some fans feel like he is insulting them it makes since they might get mad as well. In fact I think this might be the first time we have seen anyone get angry over a specific individual, beyond the typical racist rants which are part of something else, that I can really think of. Usually the complaints have been more generic and aimed at the production as a whole or CBS. Even others who have basically said the same thing as this actor didn't seem to garner any real hatred, beyond the idea that they were making a mistake or the wrong choices.

You could say that the problem wasn't the opinion so much as how he worded it. I didn't take it as a insult because my take on it was he was basically just trying to repeat the old sale pitch about how the show is going to be different but still be Trek and the stuff like uniforms don't matter. I can see how some might though look at what he said was that Trek fans have no standards and they will watch anything that we do so we don't value them as fans. It's all about how you perceive his words and try and guess at his motivation because all we really have is the ability to make a guess since we will never know what he truly believes.

Jason

 

[Noname Given]

To be fair, nobody was even mad at this actor before he made his opinion be known. If some fans feel like he is insulting them it makes since that might get mad as well. In fact I think this might be the first time we have seen anyone get angry over a specific individual, beyond the typical racist rants which are part of something else, that I can really think of. Usually the complaints have been more generic and aimed at the production as a whole or CBS. Even others who have basically said the same thing as this actor didn't seem to garner any real hatred, beyond the idea that they were making a mistake or the wrong choices.

You could say that the problem wasn't the opinion so much as how he worded it. I didn't take it as a insult because my take on it was he was basically just trying to repeat the old sale pitch about how the show is going to be different but still be Trek and the stuff like uniforms don't matter. I can see how some might though look at what he said was that Trek fans have no standards and they will watch anything that we do so we don't value them as fans. It's all about you perceive his words and try and guess at his motivation because all we really have is the ability to make a guess since we will never know what he truly believes.

Jason

No, the 'problem' is fans don't feel there should be any response by someone working on the show that isn't:

"Oh, yes, I see your opinion as valid; please watch the show..."

There was NOTHING WRONG with what he said or how he said it - he didn't single any one fan out - it was a pretty general statement about large groups of fandom that exist for nearly any popular IP. There are those who can't seem to believe that someone who works 15+ hours a day for weeks at a time might have an opinion on what others are saying about his show based on about 2 minutes of edited footage.
^^^
The horror - that someone who WORKS on the project many people are discussing would have the Gaul to express his personal opinion. What is the internet coming to??!!

If you really take such offense - the best thing you can do is: Not subscribe to CBS All Access and not bother to watch the show in any form (legal or otherwise). That the most damning thing you can do - and he even says that in his opinion post.

Again, there was NOTHING wrong with what he said or how he said it - it was his OPINION. You have many ways to respond; but again (and IMO) it seems many Star Trek Superfan egos can't accept a Star Trek actor expressing his honest opinion. What they want from the cast and crew is a lockstep "The Customer is Always Right" response - and some validation of their own opinions. That he didn't do that seems to upset quite a few fans here.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I have certainly seen some folks get over-heated in these fan on fan discussions.
Here's my take. On one "side" there are fans who are not merely disgruntled by the apparent creative choices of a new Star Trek show (or film) they are SO angry that they want it all to fail, to go away, and Trek to either revert to something they like or go away forever.
That stance threatens - to some extent - the thing I love and enjoy. I am not going to be neutral in my replies or comments about "fans" who take such an extreme view, nor am I going to be neutral about other "fans" who complain that those who take such an extreme view are being treated poorly.
When you come by and poop on the lawn at the City Park, shame on you. When you set the lawn at the City Park on fire, I'm going to have to respond, and not in some neutral bland fashion, respecting your opinion and qualifying my comments "Well, I can certainly respect your desire to see the Park burn, and I know you are civic-minded, but I think parks should be fire-free."

My sentiments exactly.