Middle-Easterners in "Discovery"

[Jedman67]

It's completely unclear who President Trump was referring to, when criticizing "hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides." That's a Rorschach inkblot that can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which of the "many sides" committed murder, allegedly I mean? The silence is a deafening silence of specificity.

edit/breaking news: The President has just offered a more specific condemnation.

And as a fairly regular republican, i'm ashamed it took him 2 days to say "neo-nazism is bad."
All he needed to do was have his speechwriter put this together right away, and just say it - even if insincere, at least he's paying lip-service to his job as president.
At this point, it just looks like he was pressured into making this kind of forceful statement.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And as a fairly regular republican, i'm ashamed it took him 2 days to say "neo-nazism is bad."
All he needed to do was have his speechwriter put this together right away, and just say it - even if insincere, at least he's paying lip-service to his job as president.
At this point, it just looks like he was pressured into making this kind of forceful statement.

He could have just cribbed from Indiana Jones!

 

[cultcross]

Not a forum for politics, ladies and gents.

Let's return to the calm and measured discussion on canon in Discovery.

 

[Tallguy]

Whoa. This is a hell of a thread.

Not a forum for politics, ladies and gents.

Let's return to the calm and measured discussion on canon in Discovery.

Oh, I needed that today. Thank you.

 

[Jedman67]

Not a forum for politics, ladies and gents.

Let's return to the calm and measured discussion on canon in Discovery.

#hater!

 

[Nyotarules]

Trump condemned the violence, try to keep up.

Not straight away he didn't. Rewriting history already, are we?

 

[Malaika]

Nichelle Nichols is curvy, Saldana is slim. It's not that Saldana has no curves, just less.

The two women don't look remotely alike.

they have different body types. Zoe has a lithe ballerina frame with long legs and is more atletic in shape.

I think the casting for Uhura was as good as Kirk and the others because none of them really looks like the old actors for me, saved maybe for Quinto.
While Zoe and Nichelle don't look like clones of each other, I think Nichelle, like the other actors, still informed their casting of Zoe...

..not too alike, but together they still look like they could play two women who are part of the same family.

The problem a number of black people had with Saldana was simply as you tried to imply with "commercial" that she was too light skinned and her features not considered broad enough. It seems series and movie producers often prefer to cast black woman looking like Halle Berry/Zoe Saldana over some who look more like Viola Davis/Lupita Nyong'o. It is the same with Hispanic actresses. The "whiter" they look, the higher their job chances. So in short some think that it is colorism to cast a lighter skinned black woman in a role a darker skinned black woman previously played. Of course the Uhura/Zoe Saldana debate was nothing compared to when Zoe Saldana played Nina Simone. Now that was ugly!

honestly, (putting the Nina Simone debate aside and only talking about Zoe playing Uhura and other roles) the complains about Zoe mostly started when people discovered that she's afro-latina instead of afro-american. The difference between race and ethnicity seems to not be so easy to understand for some people so it's not rare to find people who believe that afro-latinx are biracial or more mixed than afro-american people by default (ironically, it's Nichelle's family that is biracial. In fact, she once commented that she couldn't get the fuss about her kiss with Kirk because she saw that happening in her family all the time)

I'm unsure I even get the whole 'more commercial look' argument either because if I were to use the 'standards' I see some people using to establish who looks more 'eurocentric' than another, some of Nichelle's features may fit more that description than Zoe's and while they might need a different foundation tone for their make up like any woman, Zoe isn't so dramatically different compared to Nichelle in a way that screams hollywood colorism (let's not forget that like a lot of the shows from the era, tos episodes - mostly filmed inside the studios - generally look darker and less 'light' and flashy than the reboot movies)

colorism and whitewashing are serious issues in hollywood that should get called out and discussed endlessly. However, I don't find it fair when poc actors are constantly subjected to a scrutinity and standards that are never used to question the castings of white actors who play white characters. I get it isn't always easy to find a balance but I find the internet often doesn't even try to.

 

[Fateor]

Lupita would be the perfect actress for the part. A real East African!

Uhura isn't from East Africa, Lupita looks nothing like Nichelle Nichols, isn't a good actress, didn't graduate till 2011-2012 so wouldn't have been available, and doesn't hold a candle to Zoe Saldana acting wise.

 

[Nyotarules]

Uhura isn't from East Africa, Lupita looks nothing like Nichelle Nichols, isn't a good actress, didn't graduate till 2011-2012 so wouldn't have been available, and doesn't hold a candle to Zoe Saldana acting wise.

Lupita does not need to look like Nichelle Nichols, Zoe Saldana certainly does not. As for her acting abilities that is your opinion, since everyone is a critic. Her availability for the present Star Trek franchise in 2009 does not negate her suitability for the role. Its moot anyway since as far as I know Saldana is not leaving the franchise yet. I am just dealing with a 'what if scenario.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Uhura isn't from East Africa, Lupita looks nothing like Nichelle Nichols, isn't a good actress, didn't graduate till 2011-2012 so wouldn't have been available, and doesn't hold a candle to Zoe Saldana acting wise.

Where do you think Uhura is from? Swahili, which is her first language, is the lingua franca of East Africa and given that her name is Swahili, she's probably from East Africa.
No one is casting an actor to play Nichelle Nichols
She began acting in 2008 after working in film production for a few years.

 

[Longinus]

Uhura isn't from East Africa, Lupita looks nothing like Nichelle Nichols, isn't a good actress, didn't graduate till 2011-2012 so wouldn't have been available, and doesn't hold a candle to Zoe Saldana acting wise.

...

Well.

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences seems to disagree with you about Nyong'o's acting ability...

I really don't have a problem with Saldana as Uhura (at least related to the actor rather than how the character was written) but that claim was bloody absurd.

 

[Fateor]

As for her acting abilities that is your opinion, since everyone is a critic.

My opinion supported by the fact the biggest part she has ever played in a big movie is as a minor villain in an upcoming Marvel movie.

Where do you think Uhura is from? Swahili, which is her first language, is the lingua franca of East Africa and given that her name is Swahili, she's probably from East Africa.

Swahili was never mentioned as being her first language, just one she was familiar with.

She began acting in 2008 after working in film production for a few years.

No she didn't, she had a bit part in a short film in 2008 while she was in Yale acting school which she graduated from in 2011-2012.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My opinion supported by the fact the biggest part she has ever played in a big movie is as a minor villain in an upcoming Marvel movie.

You missed "12 Years A Slave"? She won an Academy Award for her performance in that. As well as a SAG award. She was also nominated by several other Film making organizations.
Since when does the size of a role indicate ability?

 

[Nerys Myk]

-

Swahili was never mentioned as being her first language, just one she was familiar with

Since she defaults to Swahili in "The Changeling", I think Swahili might be her first language

UHURA: See the dog. See the dog,
CHAPEL: Sound it out.
UHURA: R, r, run!
CHAPEL: That's it, Uhura. That's very good. Now try the next one.
UHURA: The dog has a, The dog, (something)
CHAPEL: Not Swahili, Uhura. In English. The dog has a ball. See? B, ah, ll. Ball. Now you go ahead.
UHURA: (Swahili, then) The dog has a ball

Still, the point is, based on the information we have: Swahili name, speaks Swahili and is from the United States of Africa, I think East Africa is where she's from.

No she didn't, she had a bit part in a short film in 2008 while she was in Yale acting school which she graduated from in 2011-2012.

Pretty sure that counts as acting. She also was in the African TV series Shuga from 2009-11.

 

[Fateor]

You missed "12 Years A Slave"? She won an Academy Award for her performance in that. As well as a SAG award. She was also nominated by several other Film making organizations.

You might have had a more convincing argument if you hadn't mentioned the Oscar given just how political their selections tend to be.

 

[Kor]

Problematic as the Oscar may be, it's still an industry standard.

Kor

 

[Nerys Myk]

You might have had a more convincing argument if you hadn't mentioned the Oscar given just how political their selections tend to be.

As I mentioned, she won and was nominated for several awards for her performance. The movie it's self was also well reviewed and nominated. Are they all "political". So that pretty much scuttles your claim that "My opinion supported by the fact the biggest part she has ever played in a big movie is as a minor villain in an upcoming Marvel movie" But keep moving them goal posts.

So, what did you see that makes you think she's a terrible actress? Since you seem to be unaware of "12 Years A Slave", I guess that's out. How about her work as Maz Kanata in "Star Wars: The Force Awaken"? Or did that film slip under your radar too?

 

[Malaika]

Lupita is a good actress but in this reboot it's clear they chose the cast using the original as inspiration, and Uhura is no exception. Because Uhura is Nichelle, it's not like she comes from a book where you have a definite description of her appearance and Nichelle doesn't fit with it, but Lupita or others would be a more "accurate" representation of her. Uhura was created for Nichelle and more often than not, no one can really establish how a character is supposed to look based on their nationality alone.

Of course, if they were to add more female characters native from Africa then yes, it would make sense and would be refreshing if they got someone who looks like Alek Wek for a change.
I don't like getting in the whole "african look" stereotypes territory , though, because not all the women from there look the same, even in the same country (in that sense, neither Zoe nor Nichelle are "invalid")

On a different note, I don't like these arguments for another reason too. See, black actresses already have to struggle to find work in hollywood, the least thing they need is getting pitted against each other.
And honestly it's annoying how, as soon as Lupita became the it girl of the moment, the internet started to lobby for her to play all the black female characters and replace every other black actress. There was even a petition to replace Halle Berry as Storm (I don't question that casting one way or another, but I'm against people putting actresses against each other regardless). This kind of thing does nothing to contrast the annoying "there can only be one" ideology hollywood already has with actresses, especially of color. And while I think people genuinely wanted Lupita to get more roles, I'm not sure they helped her with those articles.

I sure hope to not see Sonequa Martin-Green, now, getting questioned as not being "enough" representation.

 

[gblews]

My opinion supported by the fact the biggest part she has ever played in a big movie is as a minor villain in an upcoming Marvel movie.

Cover your left eye and read line four.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Although I do believe Zoe ultimately did a good job as Uhura, IMO, Lupita would have been a better choice. However, Kerry Washington would have been the perfect choice.

 

[Malaika]

what's the argument then?
I thought the main complain here was that Zoe doesn't look like Nichelle "enough" but then different actresses are proposed for the role (eg., Lupita and Kerry) who look even LESS like original Uhura and, apparently, new Uhura wouldn't need to look like Nichelle... Did I miss something?

I struggle to imagine other actors playing these characters better than the ones who actually do play them because I never saw them play them (or at least similar roles), I have nothing to judge. It seems, therefore, a pretentious, baseless, comparision at the expense of the one and only person who does the job, without having anything to compare others with.
I'm unsure about what this kind of opinion is truly based on, beside someone just liking an actor personally and wanting them to play an important role regardless having any actual evidence that they'd do that well, or better than the actor who got the job. It seems a moot point.

For example, someone who loves Adrien Brody could argue he'd make a better Spock than Quinto (Adrien had been in talks for the role), but how do you even know that? They are both good actors but in the end, Quinto is the one effectively playing Spock and making the effort to be him. Adrien's supposed ability to be a perfect Spock is just an abstract idea probably based on his physical appearance more than anything. Sure, unlike the Uhura dream castings from above, Adrien has played roles that might at least suggest that playing Spock could be a familiar territory for him, but more often than not an actor isn't necessarily perfect playing ALL similar roles.

In the end, JJ wanted Zoe and was willing to wait for her to finish avatar because she had something and provided something that other actresses from the casting didn't have. She was his Uhura and gave him what he wanted his Uhura to be, and Nichelle herself has only love and admiration for Zoe and was super happy about the casting.
I guess the same happened with the others too.