Middle-Easterners in "Discovery"

[Balok's Decoy]

The lines aren't imaginary. In Trek, it is primarily white Americans that lead the way. That is "Gene's Vision". Look at "The Cage".

Are you kidding? That is profoundly racist. And to base this view off of an unaired episode is empty of all meaning. Giving white people all the "leading the way" credit just because the bridge on The Cage was largely white is ridiculous. I think you need to rephrase yourself here.

 

[BillJ]

Are you kidding? That is profoundly racist. And to base this view off of an unaired episode is empty of all meaning. Giving white people all the "leading the way" credit just because the bridge on The Cage was largely white is ridiculous. I think you need to rephrase yourself here.

It wasn't Roddenberry that was forward thinking, but NBC and advertisers that knew minorities had money to spend.

And not largely white, all white. As were the Talosians and the encampment people.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

It wasn't Roddenberry that was forward thinking, but NBC and advertisers that knew minorities had money to spend.

And not largely white, all white. As were the Talosians and the encampment people.

It makes no difference whether it was Roddenberry, NBC, or a combination of the two. You see in episode after episode a progressive, forward-thinking, racially and ethnically diverse perspective. You can call this the "Star Trek Vision" or the "Roddenberry Vision" or the "NBC vision," but either way that's the perspective that has been offered by Star Trek. They fuck it up sometimes, they come up short other times, but ultimately, that's the intent.

EDIT: And saying that Roddenberry wanted to portray a future where white people are the hottest shit ever based on the cast in The Cage is cynical and, again, ridiculous.

 

[BillJ]

It makes no difference whether it was Roddenberry, NBC, or a combination of the two. You see in episode after episode a progressive, forward-thinking, racially and ethnically diverse perspective. You can call this the "Star Trek Vision" or the "Roddenberry Vision" or the "NBC vision," but either way that's the perspective that has been offered by Star Trek. They fuck it up sometimes, they come up short other times, but ultimately, that's the intent.

EDIT: And saying that Roddenberry wanted to portray a future where white people are the hottest shit ever based on the cast in The Cage is cynical and, again, ridiculous.

And then we have Phase II/The Motion Picture. Where Roddenberry had a chance to add characters and diversify the crew. We got two white males (Decker, and Xon for Phase II) and Persis Khambatta who was Indian with light skin. Then, with TNG, the two lowest ranked characters were black, and it would have only been one if not for Bob Justman pushing to have a Klingon on the bridge late in the process. And everyone else was white.

Roddenberry's track record isn't too good in this regard. No matter how outraged you act.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

And then we have Phase II/The Motion Picture. Where Roddenberry had a chance to add characters and diversify the crew. We got two white males (Decker, and Xon for Phase II) and Persis Khambatta who was Indian with light skin. Then, with TNG, the two lowest ranked characters were black, and it would have only been one if not for Bob Justman pushing to have a Klingon on the bridge late in the process. And everyone else was white.

Roddenberry's track record isn't too good in this regard. No matter how outraged you act.

I don't want to come off as Roddenberry's advocate necessarily. The guy had issues. But to imply that he's a racist and wanted Star Trek to be portrayed that way is just taking those things a little too far, I think.

Persis Khambatta was a woman of color. She was not white, no matter how "light" her skin. That literally makes no difference.

I think you're right to point out the relative lack of diversity in TMP. That's a fair criticism. But ultimately, I think while it's fine to point out Roddenberry's shortcomings where they come up, I don't think it's fair to imply he was trying to put this "white people are the best" spin into his shows and movies.

EDIT: And ultimately, Star Trek is much much much bigger than just Roddenberry, even from the time of TOS. So when people refer to "Roddenberry's Vision," I think that's too limited probably, because it was also "DC Fontana's Vision" and "Gene Coon's Vision," and later it was other writers, producers, and director's visions. Their own takes on this idea.

 

[cultcross]

Are you kidding? That is profoundly racist. And to base this view off of an unaired episode is empty of all meaning. Giving white people all the "leading the way" credit just because the bridge on The Cage was largely white is ridiculous. I think you need to rephrase yourself here.

White Americans fill the vast majority of 'hero' roles in Star Trek. That's been true in each incarnation. In TOS, it was remarkable that there was a woman of colour on the bridge, but ultimately, she answered the phone. Geordi on TNG is portrayed as a social failure whose close friends and love interests are largely imaginary/artificial in some way and who doesn't get the background development of everyone else until season 7. Worf, Sisko and Tuvok are the only black cast who get to lead the charge, as it were (and Tuvok only occasionally, and he got pushed to the back after season 3). Broadening to all non white Americans doesn't even bring in that many more. Most PoC characters are background players, or underdeveloped.
Black female characters are so rare that one off bit parts make the top 5. Until Discovery, Uhura remains the only black female regular across 5 series. Again, expanding the scope to PoC generally doesn't get us many more.

 

[BillJ]

...I don't think it's fair to imply he was trying to put this "white people are the best" spin into his shows and movies.

When you look at the overall casting that he had control of, it is hard to see it any other way. Star Trek is a great show, but much of its greatness came from people other than Roddenberry. Roddenberry was a competent producer who rode a great idea for nearly thirty years.

 

[Longinus]

This is getting absurd. Star Trek has always had pretty diverse cast. Going from the observation that it could have been even more diverse to the conclusion that Roddenberry (or other people in charge) was some sort of white supremacist is ludicrous and insulting.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I mean, considering all of this, I should probably reframe/revise my viewpoint.

I absolutely agree with @BillJ and @cultcross that there has been a lack of meaningful, important diverse characters in Star Trek, in general. There have been a couple exceptions maybe, a couple half-hearted efforts, but not where we needed to be. I think DS9 is a surprisingly diverse cast. Really the only consistent white male hero characters in that show are Odo and O'Brien.

Maybe I'm being a bit too defensive of Roddenberry. He could have done better. But I think he did a lot of good, even if you just think of him unlocking the door so that all these other people could shove it open.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The idea Star Trek is some paragon of progressivism is a myth conjured up to sell ad-buys. It's really radical chic at best.

The main cast included five white men. Two of whom were Canadians wafing [bad] Scottish and Russian accents. And then there was the nice, tall Jewish fellow who was made up to look like the devil.

There was one Asian man who was the chauffeur--just like Kato. And one woman of color who was just there to answer the telephone. There were a lot of professional women in the 60s who answer phones. A good chunk of them were of color.

There were two other white women who were glorified servants. One of whom cooked the Captain's meals, made his coffee, and fetched his slippers. She was also sexually assaulted within one first few episodes. Said assault was laughed-off and dismissed in the end.

 

[cultcross]

This is getting absurd. Star Trek has always had pretty diverse cast. Going from the observation that it could have been even more diverse to the conclusion that Roddenberry (or other people in charge) was some sort of white supremacist is ludicrous and insulting.

Of course, no-one has said that.
Trek's lack of diversity, where it exists, is the fault if those who make and approve those decisions. It doesn't come out of nowhere. It doesn't make them white supremacists, but it does make them complicit in racism and sexism, whether consciously or not.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

If you want to go with a true representation of humanity, most humans we see would be non-white. Its a Hollywood casting issues that we keep seeing so many white people when most of humanity is not white.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, no-one has said that.

Roddenberry is either a progressive visionary or Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan! There can be no in-between!!!

 

[Balok's Decoy]

If you want to go with a true representation of humanity, most humans we see would be non-white. Its a Hollywood casting issues that we keep seeing so many white people when most of humanity is not white.

Yes and we unfortunately still have this problem today. Fortunately DSC is making an effort in that regard. That cast is impressively diverse.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Roddenberry is either a progressive visionary or Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan! There can be no in-between!!!

Ok, as long as we all can recognize that middle ground, we are in complete agreement. He wasn't on either end of that spectrum. He was too calculating to be a progressive visionary but much too flexible and open to be a disgusting racist.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Roddenberry is either a progressive visionary or Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan! There can be no in-between!!!

Gene himself isn't the problem. I have no doubt that, while he did have his share of faults, I'm sure he was a pretty solid guy, overall. And, in his own way, a creative magician.

The problem is the messianic quality people attribute him, as if he were some SF&F prophet or savior.

 

[BillJ]

If you want to go with a true representation of humanity, most humans we see would be non-white. Its a Hollywood casting issues that we keep seeing so many white people when most of humanity is not white.

Part of the problem has been that up until Discovery, Star Trek was an American show, aimed at American audiences.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Part of the problem has been that up until Discovery, Star Trek was an American show, aimed at American, white, upper middle-class audiences.

FTFY

 

[BillJ]

...I'm sure he was a pretty solid guy, overall.

From everything I've read about him, and to be fair some of it obviously is slanted by people who had their own agendas, Roddenberry was a douche.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yeah. But he also knew where to get the best weed. And probably coke.

And I'm sure he made a good wing man.