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Canon: How many times is enough?

They probably established the parameters of what's allowed, what isn't, technical jargon, and all that other stuff when writing the "pilot."

Since we live in the age of Easter Eggs, they will likely appear in abundance. All those things that scream "Hey! Remember Star Trek!", but I'm hoping that I'm wrong.
 
The show should be internally consistent, I don't give a rat's ass if it is consistent with the rest of the franchise.
 
When it comes to technical continuity, they care to a degree. I'm not the one who brought this up. It's mostly trivial, and was used by a poster as an example of "See? Star Trek has no continuity!"

If they didn't care about setting rules and trying to follow them, why do they create writer's "bibles"?

These writer's guides are pretty explicit. Even if they deviate from them here and there, or make mistakes, it takes another leap to make the hyperbolic "There's no continuity" or even "only in broad strokes."

That may be true for the original series, which didn't have a lot of continuity, but not for the others. In the majority of episodes of the four spin off series, there's references to events of prior episodes. In many, there are references to other series.

This is just basic world building and character building that many writers seem to enjoy including.
I think the struggle is the demand for every show to line up with the rest. There are references, but I don't expect them to line up like a puzzle piece.

Secondly, how many life altering techs have been introduced and then forgotten? Are we to just ignore those, but hold DSC to this standard?
 
And a lot of viewers dropped out from watching that show in part from it seeming to be too carelessly highly different from what was established before
No, viewers did NOT drop out from watching because it was "too carelessly highly different." Going by viewer polls and by the overall feedback at the time, viewers were dropping off mainly because the characters were uninteresting and unrelatable and, in many cases, poorly acted (that and the stories started getting boring and predictable).

The fanbase noted the (dis)continuities from previous shows and complained about them bitterly. Because of course they did; they're the only ones who watch Star Trek often enough and closely enough to even NOTICE the discontinuities. If they HAD "dropped out" from watching, they never would have noticed those discontinuities in the first place.
 
These writer's guides are pretty explicit...
Yes, but not SPECIFIC. You'll notice, for example, that many trek writers are encouraged to refer to Memory Alpha as a source for existing Treklore, but the writer's guide itself doesn't contain a fictional timeline or a list of important "do not contradict" canonical plotpoints. Retroactive continuity is always a tool in a writer's toolbox and Star Trek is no exception.

This is just basic world building and character building that many writers seem to enjoy including.
Indeed. But world building is meant to be a creative exercise, not an academic one. In a conflict between "I have a new idea for how that could be depicted!" and "For the last 15 years this has been depicted a certain way" the former should always be given priority.

Discovery is basically doing that with the Klingons, and probably with alot of other things too. This is a good thing, because Star Trek is always -- repeat, ALWAYS -- at its finest when it tries to show us something new and unexpected. Sometimes that means showing us a new interpretation of something we've seen before, and sometimes it means showing us something totally original. As with all things, it depends on the execution more than anything else.
 
Yes, but not SPECIFIC. You'll notice, for example, that many trek writers are encouraged to refer to Memory Alpha as a source for existing Treklore, but the writer's guide itself doesn't contain a fictional timeline or a list of important "do not contradict" canonical plotpoints. Retroactive continuity is always a tool in a writer's toolbox and Star Trek is no exception.


Indeed. But world building is meant to be a creative exercise, not an academic one. In a conflict between "I have a new idea for how that could be depicted!" and "For the last 15 years this has been depicted a certain way" the former should always be given priority.

Discovery is basically doing that with the Klingons, and probably with alot of other things too. This is a good thing, because Star Trek is always -- repeat, ALWAYS -- at its finest when it tries to show us something new and unexpected. Sometimes that means showing us a new interpretation of something we've seen before, and sometimes it means showing us something totally original. As with all things, it depends on the execution more than anything else.

So much win! You manage to put my emotions into words and ideas! Thank you!
 
@JRTStarlight I hear what you're saying, but I'd hope DSC sets new rules for the writers room - start fresh, only keeping the themes of what came before but not the OCD super anal details. And keep it consistent throughout the show (except where you need to retcon because shit happens)

Then why bother making it Star Trek?

Why not create a brand new series with the same themes as Star Trek developed, but wipe the slate clean? The only reason I can think of is to attract Star Trek fans. Branding.
 
Then why bother making it Star Trek?

Why not create a brand new series with the same themes as Star Trek developed, but wipe the slate clean? The only reason I can think of is to attract Star Trek fans. Branding.

I honestly don't understand why some folks need to hang onto minutiae. It isn't what makes Star Trek "Star Trek". The optimism and boldly going into danger and the unknown is what makes it "Star Trek".
 
I honestly don't understand why some folks need to hang onto minutiae. It isn't what makes Star Trek "Star Trek". The optimism and boldly going into danger and the unknown is what makes it "Star Trek".
I'm sure it's a little more complicated than that. It's a "season to taste" thing. Too much and it doesn't matter. Not enough and people don't think it's Star Trek.

Funny thing is: I watched Yesteryear yesterday. That shot with the MOON is one of the most striking in the episode. I wouldn't trade it for all the salt in the world. :) They also do it as a shot facing Spock looking at the city with the moon behind him. Then they do a reverse and it looks like: THERE'S ANOTHER MOON.
 
Funny thing is: I watched Yesteryear yesterday. That shot with the MOON is one of the most striking in the episode. I wouldn't trade it for all the salt in the world. :) They also do it as a shot facing Spock looking at the city with the moon behind him. Then they do a reverse and it looks like: THERE'S ANOTHER MOON.

So canon is saved! Spock is right when he says Vulcan doesn't have "a moon", it has multiple moons! :lol:
 
Then why bother making it Star Trek?

Why not create a brand new series with the same themes as Star Trek developed, but wipe the slate clean? The only reason I can think of is to attract Star Trek fans. Branding.
They could even give it a totally out there name, like maybe Orville or something like that.
 
So canon is saved! Spock is right when he says Vulcan doesn't have "a moon", it has multiple moons! :lol:
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I'm going to tackle commenting on this thread page-by-page, so as not to make it too long at once. I haven't read page 2 and beyond yet, so please don't be annoyed if something I bring up has been discussed/refuted later on in the thread.

Heh, I'm reminded of a Voyager fanfic I read recently, in which Janeway and Chakotay happily danced the night away in a disco holodeck program. The music of choice was ABBA.

Vulcan has no moon. Mentioned once. Well, so was "Vulcan was conquered." Nobody cites that one. And we saw a Vulcan moon in both Yesteryear AND Star Trek: The Motion Picture. It's also a charming plot point in several books. (NOT CANON! UNCLEAN!)
What we saw was Vulcan's twin planet - two planets that revolve around a common center of gravity in the same orbit.

Does Star Trek have money? Yep. I can point to several places in TOS and TNG. But wait! In Star Trek: The Voyage Home they talk about NOT having money! Does that one reference later reinforced by later TNG examples override TOS?
I interpret this whole mess to mean that "we don't use money" was a lazy way of saying "we have an economy that exists, but the Federation worlds do not use physical currency." This may have come into effect between TOS and TVH; the only TOS episode in which physical currency might have exchanged hands is "The Trouble With Tribbles". But since Cyrano Jones gave Uhura a tribble instead of her having to buy it, we'll never know if she would have made an electronic transaction or if she had real credits tucked away in a very tiny purse somewhere. As for TVH, Kirk could hardly access a bank account that wouldn't exist for another 300 years.

We do know that Beverly uses some sort of electronic currency. She had to buy that hideous cloth somehow, and clearly said to charge it to her account on the Enterprise.

Here's one that's going to be super relevant: Woman can't command starships. Mentioned as part of the plot in a terrible (TERRIBLE) episode. And we've since seen LOTS of women captains in Starfleet. (First seen in the same movie that gave us "No money" as it happens.)
I took that to be merely Janice Lester's perception of Starfleet. She wanted to be a captain, went as far as she could in Starfleet, and at some point she failed. She didn't take it well and latched on to the idea that the reason for her failure was because she was a woman, not because there was some other reason she hadn't succeeded.

James R. Kirk: Stop. Just please stop.
Gary was forgetful? Maybe "R." stood for some nickname Gary had for Kirk. Who knows? :shrug:


Internal consistency is absolutely essential to any kind of world-building. That's what makes fantasy worlds work, you contradicting established lore makes the world less believable. The problem is Trek contradicts itself A LOT. As pointed out above a lot of it can be rationalized if you're twisting yourself into mental contortions to figure it out, but a lot can't be. TOS has so many contradictions to the rest of the franchise it should almost all be disregarded as Canon where it disagrees with other Canon. And sometimes that's what happens e.g. Spock quotes 37 million dead from WWIII, which is revised to 600 million in TNG and 600 million is repeated in Voyager.
I remember reading a Best of Trek essay a long time ago, in which the author did a meticulous breakdown of every inconsistency in TOS (this was pre-TNG), and said that if you take every inconsistency as evidence that the episode in question had taken place in an alternate universe, then TOS had taken place in several dozen different alternate universes.

I think I probably write the same thing every time this comes up. But my feelings are that, while there should be, at least, marginal respect paid towards what has come before - both narrative and aesthetically - we shouldn't expect 100% adherence to canon. You can't expect CBS to finance a show where the sets, uniforms, and story telling match what was the norm in the 60's. At the end of the day, good story telling is what will keep the franchise alive.
The Star Trek Continues fan film people have managed to do exactly that - granted, they slip up on a few things now and then, but the majority of their episodes have the same look and feel as a 1960s episode.
 
I don't think a new trek show should be using 1960's style sets for a new production. It should look like it's really 2 or 300 years from now. I like what STC did. It's one of the only fan productions I've ever enjoyed, but the goals of an official new series are far different than something like Star Trek Continues.

That said, uber flashy showy sets and designs are really not necessary. They don't need to use holographic minority report displays or excessive lens flares, or impractical lighting schemes(imo).

Starships should have a practical functionality to them: Futuristic, but utilitarian, and simplistic interface.
 
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