• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Canon: How many times is enough?

Of all of the details that Disco would respect from TOS I would be amazed and impressed if they got that aspect of the Federation being a very very loose association of sovereign worlds (at least going by Journey to Babel and some others).

OTOH, maybe ENT also reinforced that. I dunno, I'm not an ENT guy.
 
Did you feel the same way about Sybok?

Sybok was a dumb idea. The surprise brother, sister... twenty five and fifty years after the show went off the air? Dumb. Doesn't mean it won't work. But I have a feeling that they were looking more for a way to connect to canon than having a compelling character trait.

I would've preferred that Michael Burnham stood on her own as an interesting character, than being made interesting by her canon connections.
 
Sybok was a dumb idea. The surprise brother, sister... twenty five and fifty years after the show went off the air? Dumb. Doesn't mean it won't work. But I have a feeling that they were looking more for a way to connect to canon than having a compelling character trait.
[Deleted my comment because I'd seen Syobk already brought up in reference to that comment, but we can still talk about him!]

Personally I kind of like Sybok. I thought he was fun and actually pretty interesting. And it didn't bother me that we'd never heard of him. Spock's explanation actually made sense, coming from a Vulcan, which was that it was never relevant until then. I guess Burnham's existence wasn't relevant to Spock in TOS and the films. That's fine.
 
Personally I kind of like Sybok. I thought he was fun and actually pretty interesting. And it didn't bother me that we'd never heard of him. Spock's explanation actually made sense, coming from a Vulcan, which was that it was never relevant until then. I guess Burnham's existence wasn't relevant to Spock in TOS and the films. That's fine.

I liked Sybok, because he gave us a unique glimpse of the Trek universe that had to exist: Vulcans with emotion. The connection to Spock was forced.

I hope when I look back at Michael Burnham, that it is the character that engaged me, not her connections to other bits of the Star Trek universe.
 
I liked Sybok, because he gave us a unique glimpse of the Trek universe that had to exist: Vulcans with emotion. The connection to Spock was forced.

I hope when I look back at Michael Burnham, that it is the character that engaged me, not her connections to other bits of the Star Trek universe.
Have to agree on both points. They could have just made Sybok a notorious emotional Vulcan rebel that all Vulcans are aware of.
 
Okay. I can cope with sacrificing SFC to get John M Ford's fantastic Klingons!!
I hope somebody has done an artistic representation of these Klingons.
lYes and Yes, relegate Enterprise to a alternate universe created by the events of First Contact. Spaceflight Chron is a superior history (imho), I like how it places Humans and Vulcan on more of a equal footing right from the start.
The Vulcan homeworld being a moon orbiting the large planet seen in the original version of TMP fixes that quite nicely. Vulcan has no moon.
That's no moon...

*obligatory Star Wars reference.*
 
Sybok was a dumb idea. The surprise brother, sister... twenty five and fifty years after the show went off the air? Dumb. Doesn't mean it won't work. But I have a feeling that they were looking more for a way to connect to canon than having a compelling character trait.

I would've preferred that Michael Burnham stood on her own as an interesting character, than being made interesting by her canon connections.
Keep in mind that this was the same best friend and commanding officer who didn't know that Spock's father was the legendary Sarek of Vulcan (or at least that he was the Federation ambassador from Vulcan, legendary may be subjective).

"I know your father is the Vucan ambassador for heaven's sake."
"That's funny. You didn't THE LAST TIME!"
 
Having many Trek "moons" be substantially larger than Luna and orbiting a gas giant would explain how a moon would hold an atmosphere, their 1 G or thereabouts gravity, and other things, but they are still called moons. And having multiple habitable moons around the same gas giant might sometimes explain why some cultures that are barely space-capable are visiting their "next door" neighbors. In the remastered TOS episodes, Starbase 11 appears to be on such a moon orbiting a gas giant (The Menagerie, Part 1 and Court Martial).
ih0brq.jpg


However, the planet Vulcan is always called a planet and never a moon, and that's a fairly important distinction to astronomers and astrophysicists. In TMP, they showed two orbs in the sky, IIRC, but they took those out in the director's version, though they claim it was not to comply with the "no moon" dialogue from The Man Trap but for other reasons.

Some now say Vulcan has a sister planet (but from TMP, if it has any validity, it would have to have two or more sister planets, and the stability of such a system is in doubt when they are that close together (unlike earth's sister, Venus, which is so far away it looks like a bright star, or Mars, not a sister but also looks like a star). But a binary planet (two planets orbiting one another and close enough to see each other as discs in the sky) may be possible and stable (so the theatrical release of TMP is still a problem, but the director's cut is fine). But hardly anyone official wants to give definitive answers to these sorts of things.

And in a show which became iconic for the way it changed society, reflected changing attitudes and challenged preconceptions, a show that literally remade the mould on how we looked at race, politics, gender equality in the media, which told stories questioning religion, American foreign policy and racism whilst offering progressive and hopeful view of humanity's potential to move beyond the petty, is this really what matters?

Ok, it's a detail that takes a little bit of creative thinking to reconcile if you care enough, but as details go it's pretty inconsequential unless you are taking "missing the woods for the trees" to the next level. As a group we have a reputation for anally examining the minutiae whilst missing the big picture and this is why.

The fact is people making trek go to some effort to get canon right within reason, but fifty years of background, much of which is already inconsistent without forcing your mind to accept the square block really does fit into the round whole, means no one is ever going to be able to get it right. There will always be errors and whilst it might be fun to try to reconcile them, they don't matter.

What matters is the underlying concepts are there, the sense DSC's team got the philosophy right. If they give Vulcan no moons or three, whether they make it 20 light years from Earth to Qo'nos or two hundred, it's petty stuff. No one ever set out to get this stuff perfect, that's been something largely imposed by the audience over time far more so than the people who actually make the show. All they've really set out to do is establish a world sufficiently recognisable we would recognise it's general setting and understand who our characters were so they could tell us a story about much more important things than the number of asteroids orbiting the Tholian homeworld.
 
I hope somebody has done an artistic representation of these Klingons.
Then you will be pleased to hear that you have already seen them on screen as the (Human fusion) Klingons of TOS and TAS and the (original race) Klingons of the movies.
The difference is that JMF takes the clues from TOS and, while staying in line with that creates a thoughtful, fully realised, sympathetic alien race.
None of the 3 year old kindergarten tantrums and "WARRIORS" and " Honour" shit that TNG+ gave us. Ford's Klingons are too busy expanding and running their empire to growl shout and bump heads.
Thats what makes them fantastic, and thats what we lost from " canon" (god I hate that word) ST
 
And in a show which became iconic for the way it changed society, reflected changing attitudes and challenged preconceptions, a show that literally remade the mold on how we looked at race, politics, gender equality in the media, which told stories questioning religion, American foreign policy and racism whilst offering progressive and hopeful view of humanity's potential to move beyond the petty, is this really what matters?
I wouldn't say it's the most important thing, by any means, but then nor would I discount it as completely and utterly unimportant or even optional if the writer cares about the work and the fictional setting. For a fictional universe, internal consistency is important, just as some semblance of reality is always important for most any fictional work in order for the characters to be able to negotiate the fictional landscape with reason and logic and for the characters' choices to make sense. To totally blow it off as unimportant is to say the fictional world doesn't need to make sense so anything goes and inconsistencies are unimportant and should always be overlooked, which in turn would lessen its overall appeal, and would likely lead to a diminished ability to reach a larger audience with its core messages, which is not which planet has a moon or not, even if a writer need only take a few minutes to get that fact right.

Ok, it's a detail that takes a little bit of creative thinking to reconcile if you care enough, but as details go it's pretty inconsequential unless you are taking "missing the woods for the trees" to the next level. As a group we have a reputation for anally examining the minutiae whilst missing the big picture and this is why.
I suppose it's always possible some individuals care more about, or only about minor details while being virtually oblivious to the greater themes and social commentary, but I discount any suggestion caring about the fictional details necessarily makes one ignorant of or indifferent to the greater message. In general, though, I dislike painting any group with a single brush.

The fact is people making trek go to some effort to get canon right within reason, but fifty years of background, much of which is already inconsistent without forcing your mind to accept the square block really does fit into the round whole, means no one is ever going to be able to get it right. There will always be errors and whilst it might be fun to try to reconcile them, they don't matter.
Like those who insist fiction doesn't have to make sense because it's fiction, I couldn't disagree with you more. Don't sacrifice one for the other, certainly, but to ignore one as unimportant when it's really not that hard to reconcile both just suggests a writer's degree of laziness or disinterest for the particular fictional universe, and I have to believe if a writer didn't care at all or thought it didn't matter, they could write for another show or setting that would be more appropriate and better suited for their needs.

What matters is the underlying concepts are there, the sense DSC's team got the philosophy right. If they give Vulcan no moons or three, whether they make it 20 light years from Earth to Qo'nos or two hundred, it's petty stuff. No one ever set out to get this stuff perfect, that's been something largely imposed by the audience over time far more so than the people who actually make the show. All they've really set out to do is establish a world sufficiently recognizable we would recognize it's general setting and understand who our characters were so they could tell us a story about much more important things than the number of asteroids orbiting the Tholian homeworld.
None of that potential story telling would be diminished by getting the fictional universe's facts right or remaining consistent with established canon. You almost make it sound like if writers are expected to know the distance to Qo'nos (if they wish to use that in their story), that they would somehow be unable to thoroughly demonstrate the dangers of ignorance and racism or sexism, etc. in their stories, too. You do both, or your story suffers, IMO.
 
There are many things, little and not so little that most people aren't going to notice and even pay attention to due to them being shown or mentioned once or twice in the long history of Star Trek. Other things are going to seem fairly important because the audience has see it a lot for a long time....like the appear of the hero ships of each show. So that when one of those happens to appear somewhere else, people will recognize I quickly. This is why I would think if the USS Enterprise every shows itself in Discovery, it should look like the TOS versions, or very closely resemble it as that audience would instantly recognize it for what it is....the ship Spock was on for most of this Starfleet career.
 
Then you will be pleased to hear that you have already seen them on screen as the (Human fusion) Klingons of TOS and TAS and the (original race) Klingons of the movies.
The difference is that JMF takes the clues from TOS and, while staying in line with that creates a thoughtful, fully realised, sympathetic alien race.
None of the 3 year old kindergarten tantrums and "WARRIORS" and " Honour" shit that TNG+ gave us. Ford's Klingons are too busy expanding and running their empire to growl shout and bump heads.
Thats what makes them fantastic, and thats what we lost from " canon" (god I hate that word) ST
I have never seen 3 year olds through tantrums like that ;)

I was hoping for more expansion on their culture visually than just "they look like TOS" Klingons. While interesting, I certainly feel their appearance could enjoy some more variety.
 
You could have titled this thread:

"THAT'S NOT CANNON!"

Maybe next time...:(
 
@JRTStarlight I hear what you're saying, but I'd hope DSC sets new rules for the writers room - start fresh, only keeping the themes of what came before but not the OCD super anal details. And keep it consistent throughout the show (except where you need to retcon because shit happens)
 
I have never seen 3 year olds through tantrums like that ;)

I was hoping for more expansion on their culture visually than just "they look like TOS" Klingons. While interesting, I certainly feel their appearance could enjoy some more variety.
Well since your query started from my post about "The Final Reflection", which is a book, then a visual representation in it is a little difficult............!
TFR provides a fully realised culture with much to admire (and quite a bit for Humans NOT to!).
A sneaky intelligent, driven species with interlinking cultural memes. And some members of the culture who do not adhere to the central meme (or at least that's what they say). A species that speaks with poetic metaphors, irony and tact. One who celebrates their greatest sucesses (and mocks the greatest failures) in exclamations and curses. A society that lives to achieve and can never stand still - for that is to die, both individually and as a species and culture.
1000% more real and logical than the bikergang vikings with overblown tantums we now have to suffer. One who has scientists and engineers and historians and strategists. All will fight for their family and friends but not everyone is a "WARRIOR!".
 
@JRTStarlight I hear what you're saying, but I'd hope DSC sets new rules for the writers room - start fresh, only keeping the themes of what came before but not the OCD super anal details. And keep it consistent throughout the show (except where you need to retcon because shit happens)
If one wanted more degrees of freedom, they could have that by just using another timeline, but then they'd know it would have less appeal to certain fans. In an Age of the Internet and searchable databases, you needn't be an obsessive to find canon lore, or even a life-long fan with eidetic memory (Google or Memory Alpha will tell a writer some fact they might need for their story in short order). But having a Trek fan on staff is probably pretty important, but only if you're willing to listen to them when they tell you you're running afoul of a pretty important piece of Trek lore, and willing to accept their suggestions how to correct it while maintaining your story. The rest will often take care of itself.

I don't know too much about DSC yet or what they're planning, but I wouldn't worry too much about visual details like ship sets and controls and uniforms, etc. since I feel those are a product of the times and the budget and not the intent of the original authors, so unless how something looked or worked was actually a plot point in an older Trek story, they should feel free to change it and modernize it within reason without feeling like they aren't being true to the source material. Otherwise, canon shouldn't be looked upon as a limitation so much as a framework upon which and within which to write.
 
I wouldn't say it's the most important thing, by any means, but then nor would I discount it as completely and utterly unimportant or even optional if the writer cares about the work and the fictional setting. For a fictional universe, internal consistency is important, just as some semblance of reality is always important for most any fictional work in order for the characters to be able to negotiate the fictional landscape with reason and logic and for the characters' choices to make sense. To totally blow it off as unimportant is to say the fictional world doesn't need to make sense so anything goes and inconsistencies are unimportant and should always be overlooked, which in turn would lessen its overall appeal, and would likely lead to a diminished ability to reach a larger audience with its core messages, which is not which planet has a moon or not, even if a writer need only take a few minutes to get that fact right.


I suppose it's always possible some individuals care more about, or only about minor details while being virtually oblivious to the greater themes and social commentary, but I discount any suggestion caring about the fictional details necessarily makes one ignorant of or indifferent to the greater message. In general, though, I dislike painting any group with a single brush.


Like those who insist fiction doesn't have to make sense because it's fiction, I couldn't disagree with you more. Don't sacrifice one for the other, certainly, but to ignore one as unimportant when it's really not that hard to reconcile both just suggests a writer's degree of laziness or disinterest for the particular fictional universe, and I have to believe if a writer didn't care at all or thought it didn't matter, they could write for another show or setting that would be more appropriate and better suited for their needs.


None of that potential story telling would be diminished by getting the fictional universe's facts right or remaining consistent with established canon. You almost make it sound like if writers are expected to know the distance to Qo'nos (if they wish to use that in their story), that they would somehow be unable to thoroughly demonstrate the dangers of ignorance and racism or sexism, etc. in their stories, too. You do both, or your story suffers, IMO.

In your opinion, which is fair enough, personally I gave up much caring a while ago about most of the hundreds of glaring inconsistencies. You're right it helps if a universe makes sense but for me I just can't bring myself to care anymore when we know full well any fictional universe will by definition have circles that can't be squared. If I'm focusing on why the Romulans had cloaking devices a hundred years early I'm not thinking about their role in the narrative, how that relates to the real world this is all an allegory of.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top