Canon: How many times is enough?

[thewanderingjack]

There are whole threads on this (right next to "Is Starfleet a military") but the entire plots of Mudd's Women, The Devil in the Dark, and much of The Trouble with Tribbles. I might chuck Requiem for Methuselah in there as well. If you want to get into TAS then I give you Rich Dude Carter Winston.

I was looking for one that focused on it but must've missed it.

I guess I should've also said, actual tangible currency exchange in Federation/SF by federation citizens to other federation citizens doing legal commerce.
I think any illegal transactions and those with species outside the Federation can reasonably use some currency... in fact let's not even say all the Federation, but Earth/human Federation entities. Then Winston and Paxton (ENT:Terra Prime) are the standouts in my mind, and Winston gets a pass as a "space trader," very likely dealing with non-Federation (or non-Earth Federation) species.

 

[thewanderingjack]

I think some effort to respect there is a cannon is important, though I think it's been shown in many of the series that even with healthy respect an element of "looseness" is inevitable and not always a bad thing.

That said, one of the recent spoilers about the lead character Michael Burnham being Spock's half sister and Sarek playing a huge part in her life just annoys the living crap out of me. And let me say I think exploring the conflict of a human raised on Vulcan is cool as hell! But why not just make it ANOTHER family?

Sarek and Spock are in multiple series and movies already. Their histories are told. The conflicts between the Vulcan ambassador and his half human son are a legendary part of the lore. Sarek was always unhappy with how "human" his son was - it was a conflict that emerged from TOS, to the TOS movies and even into TNG.

Why completely altar that family's history to include a human daughter / sister that no one's never heard of? Wouldn't it be 100% more interesting to any Star Trek fan to see that conflict explored with entirely new characters?

Sigh.

It's the alternate universe and they're trying to show us how some key things tuned out differently (and opening the door for Zach Quinto to guest star)? Just taking a blind shot ;-). I could get behind that easier then as you said, a whole ret-con of that situation.

 

[1001001]

I've only seen the comic-con trailer for Discovery. Reading this thread I know a lot more than I wanted to. Hazards of the job, I guess.

I'm just going to wait and see the show before I jump to any conclusions. I hope it's good. Canon is of course important, but I think sometimes fans give more thought to it than the writers, which sometimes leads to tortured explanations for the obvious contradictions. For the most part, it's just a mistake, or an artistic choice. There is no explanation.

BTW: thewanderingjack is an interesting username. Are you the ghost of Wesley's father, doomed to roam the Earth?

 

[thewanderingjack]

I've only seen the comic-con trailer for Discovery. Reading this thread I know a lot more than I wanted to. Hazards of the job, I guess.

I'm just going to wait and see the show before I jump to any conclusions. I hope it's good. Canon is of course important, but I think sometimes fans give more thought to it than the writers, which sometimes leads to tortured explanations for the obvious contradictions. For the most part, it's just a mistake, or an artistic choice. There is no explanation.

BTW: thewanderingjack is an interesting username. Are you the ghost of Wesley's father, doomed to roam the Earth?

True, very true... it's one of the funny things about those who seek consensus for non explicit things... like hey, when some writer gets around to it, they won't give a crap about your consensus, or even "jump the shark."

Haha, no no relation. I traveled a lot (coast to coast), and also a bit of a mix of esoteric references.

 

[B.J.]

That said, one of the recent spoilers about the lead character Michael Burnham being Spock's half sister and Sarek playing a huge part in her life just annoys the living crap out of me.

I've seen conflicting accounts on this. Some say she's Spock's half-sister, others say adoptive sister, and yet others say that Sarek is simply a mentor. Anyone have a direct quote somewhere?

 

[Jayson1]

I've seen conflicting accounts on this. Some say she's Spock's half-sister, others say adoptive sister, and yet others say that Sarek is simply a mentor. Anyone have a direct quote somewhere?

Here is a idea but what if she is a student of Amanda? Wasn't it established that she was or use to be a teacher? Maybe Amanda actually has a job at the Vulcan Science Academy, which is why we see clips of that place in the teaser.

Jason

 

[thewanderingjack]

Here is a idea but what if she is a student of Amanda? Wasn't it established that she was or use to be a teacher? Maybe Amanda actually has a job at the Vulcan Science Academy, which is why we see clips of that place in the teaser.

Jason

Like adopted (or mentor-type adopted)... I could buy that, especially with the tension with her Vulcan family... only I doubt she would've been allowed to work at VSA, she was, after all, only human (regardless of her husband's position, honors etc).

 

[Nightdiamond]

A little rationalization balm: It was never "a fact" that Trills couldn't transport, it was just what Odan said, at a time when SF was not aware of their joined nature, so maybe he was trying to keep the secret (certainly the transport would've shown two lifeforms etc).

It is also never explicitly stated that the hosts are Trill... they are called Trill hosts... but that could mean they are hosts to a Trill, not themselves Trill, or could refer to them being representatives of the Trill, not from Trill (as in not indigenous to Trill). Or maybe there were a different race of Trill.

Some of those may pass as explanations, but it's still a hard one to get out of. In fact that one opened up a hole new can of credibility problems.

The Trill belonged to the Federation all this time, and they or Starfleet didn't know about the symbiont or detected them through transport or Starfleet physicals?

But as for the host thing, the new female host was the same species as the original male host, and after that, on DS9, every host was a Trill. After Riker offered to be a host, his body had a hard time hosting the symbiont and his body was wearing down because of it. So it was suggesting that only people from Trill were suitable for serving as a host.

But this is something most fans don't really, really think about, probably because it was more trouble than it worth to have them always use a shuttle all the time (and the Trill aren't all that super interesting to begin with).

Examples, other than those that are arguably a figure of speech?

One is in the very first Ep of TNG--Beverly buys a some cloth on an alien station and says "put it on my account".

We have to realize, if we do take Jake Sisko and Picard at their words-- then that must mean Joseph Sisko doesn't charge his customers for eating at his restaurant. It's like they literally pretend to run a business, just like a kid runs a lemonade stand.

And it's not to criticize the situation, only that it seems odd when you image it.

This would be cartoon level realism.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Some of those may pass as explanations, but it's still a hard one to get out of. In fact that one opened up a hole new can of credibility problems.

The Trill belonged to the Federation all this time, and they or Starfleet didn't know about the symbiont or detected them through transport or Starfleet physicals?

But as for the host thing, the new female host was the same species as the original male host, and after that, on DS9, every host was a Trill. After Riker offered to be a host, his body had a hard time hosting the symbiont and his body was wearing down because of it. So it was suggesting that only people from Trill were suitable for serving as a host.

But this is something most fans don't really, really think about, probably because it was more trouble than it worth to have them always use a shuttle all the time (and the Trill aren't all that super interesting to begin with).



One is in the very first Ep of TNG--Beverly buys a some cloth on an alien station and says "put it on my account".

We have to realize, if we do take Jake Sisko and Picard at their words-- then that must mean Joseph Sisko doesn't charge his customers for eating at his restaurant. It's like they literally pretend to run a business, just like a kid runs a lemonade stand.

And it's not to criticize the situation, only that it seems odd when you image it.

This would be cartoon level realism.

The Trill things does have holes any which way, the "other race" of Trill combined with them insisting on not transporting ("cause it would kill them") and maybe found other ways to avoid any scans etc (easy enough, SF respects members privacy... We didn't seem to know a lot of things regarding Vulcans apparently, in TOS).

Beverly: alien station: well, when you get there you do get an "account" charged to the ship, possibly in trade for some barter material or maybe they carry some form of currency for such an occasion.

The Cisco's: if there's money: alien station. If not: he was raised on Earth, that's the way people do then. I mean if we accept the idea that there' absolutely no exchange for goods and services (Eutopian Socialist Ideal style) on Earth (generally between Humans) then most people are working for the joy they get out of what they do. Or the other benefits (SF comes with lots of perks even without "pay").

Hmmm here's a weird thing: People call ST(SF) Utopian, thinking it relates to a "perfect/ideal" place, but actually Utopia(n) means "no place," as in non-existent. Eutopia means idyllic. How... odd? Appropos?

 

[wayoung]

Like the Lucy Lawless' explanation for Xena continuity errors on The Simpsons ("Whenever you see something like that, a wizard did it") there is an incredibly simple explanation for any perceived continuity error in Trek.

A time traveller did it.

Everytime someone in the universe time travels there's no way to really tell what they effect - butterflies and all that - so anytime a continuity error, it's because of one of them.

 

[Jayson1]

Like adopted (or mentor-type adopted)... I could buy that, especially with the tension with her Vulcan family... only I doubt she would've been allowed to work at VSA, she was, after all, only human (regardless of her husband's position, honors etc).

I prefer mentor myself. As for her going to the VSA the way around that is to say she is a Vulcan citizen. Our world has imigrants all over the world who become citizens of different countries. Makes sense that not all Vulcan citizens are from the Vulcan species. I bet Amanda also has citizen of Vulcan.

Jason

 

[thewanderingjack]

I prefer mentor myself. As for her going to the VSA the way around that is to say she is a Vulcan citizen. Our world has imigrants all over the world who become citizens of different countries. Makes sense that not all Vulcan citizens are from the Vulcan species. I bet Amanda also has citizen of Vulcan.

Jason

For me this fails out the gate: Vulcans in dominant culture seem to have issue with different species in general not non-citizens in particular; or more to the point, with emotional species. Hence Spock's hard youth. A full (emotional) Human? Gasp!... But then I see them as... borderline bigots? Pretty bad in that sense anyway.

 

[Mattadd]

For me this fails out the gate: Vulcans in dominant culture seem to have issue with different species in general not non-citizens in particular; or more to the point, with emotional species. Hence Spock's hard youth. A full (emotional) Human? Gasp!... But then I see them as... borderline bigots? Pretty bad in that sense anyway.

Quite honestly most non-human species in Star Trek seem quite bigoted toward those from other species. There are a few that seem to get along well with other species (bajorans, bolians, denobulans) but most of the major species are pretty racist (specist? Whatever)

 

[Jayson1]

For me this fails out the gate: Vulcans in dominant culture seem to have issue with different species in general not non-citizens in particular; or more to the point, with emotional species. Hence Spock's hard youth. A full (emotional) Human? Gasp!... But then I see them as... borderline bigots? Pretty bad in that sense anyway.

I can see them having problems with it but I also don't think Starfleet would allow legal racism so Burnham could be their even if the Vulcans have a problem with it. A good metaphor for intergration.

Jason

 

[thewanderingjack]

Quite honestly most non-human species in Star Trek seem quite bigoted toward those from other species. There are a few that seem to get along well with other species (bajorans, bolians, denobulans) but most of the major species are pretty racist (specist? Whatever)

Humans also come off bigotted their fair share too (maybe not as much as other). Aliens are also depicted very one-dimensional. I mean wow sterotypes... really annoys me.

I also don't think Starfleet would allow legal racism

But they would, and do... even within the Federation (I'm pretty certain)... The meaning of the Prime Directive was (inconsistently) expanded to included not interfering with other cultures (not just pre-warp) in TNG. At the very least they have a "mind our own business policy" about a lot of things in that regard. Federation let's straight up murder happen (Pon farr duel... it's dirty murder plain and simple)

 

[fireproof78]

Like the Lucy Lawless' explanation for Xena continuity errors on The Simpsons ("Whenever you see something like that, a wizard did it") there is an incredibly simple explanation for any perceived continuity error in Trek.

A time traveller did it.

Everytime someone in the universe time travels there's no way to really tell what they effect - butterflies and all that - so anytime a continuity error, it's because of one of them.

What? Not Q?

 

[uniderth]

But if you want to tell your story in the TOS era but not make it look like a retro-futurism 1960s tv show...

Then pick a different era to set your show in.

Dis

The D.

Like the Lucy Lawless' explanation for Xena continuity errors on The Simpsons ("Whenever you see something like that, a wizard did it") there is an incredibly simple explanation for any perceived continuity error in Trek.

A time traveller did it.

Everytime someone in the universe time travels there's no way to really tell what they effect - butterflies and all that - so anytime a continuity error, it's because of one of them.

Yeah, but...

Whatever actions a time traveler took in the past would already be part of history by the present time. So nothing could actually be changed, becasue it would have already happened.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Internal consistency is absolutely essential to any kind of world-building.

Key word there is internal. You could argue that there's a LARGER canon that binds all of those series together, but from the standpoint of the story you're trying to tell, it has a beginning and an end and consistency is only really relevant between those two bookends.

From a writer's standpoint, you're not telling a story -- and your audience isn't watching a story -- about everything that happened before and everything that happened after. Story needs to be consistent with ITSELF more than anything; inconsistencies with other stories in other times and places are ignored easily enough.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Key word there is internal. You could argue that there's a LARGER canon that binds all of those series together, but from the standpoint of the story you're trying to tell, it has a beginning and an end and consistency is only really relevant between those two bookends.

From a writer's standpoint, you're not telling a story -- and your audience isn't watching a story -- about everything that happened before and everything that happened after. Story needs to be consistent with ITSELF more than anything; inconsistencies with other stories in other times and places are ignored easily enough.

Precisely. A great example that comes to my mind is Wayoun in DS9. He dies in the first episode he's in, then comes back later. They explained this as "the Vorta are big into cloning." It's all of two seconds of screen time to justify bringing back Jeffrey Coombs because Jeffrey Coombs is amazing. Had they not taken those two seconds to explain it, that would have bothered me because they're being inconsistent internally. From start to finish, I expect DS9 to stay true to the rules and world-building it constructs for itself. Outside that, meh.

 

[Tenacity]

The D

Da D.