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Alex Kurtzman: 'Star Trek: Discovery' Will Spark Debate And Adhere To Canon

Really, though, if you want a gender-swapped counterpart for a Bond girl name, i.e. something that women would find suggestive of sexually appealing qualities in men, it'd probably be something more like "Barry Goodlistener" or "Len Dahandwiththedishes."
 
Since these are commercial products, what's being reflected is the preference of the audience..
That's why we have these debates because the audience reflects existing fans who have filled 23 of these pages with expectations about what Discovery can deliver as entertainment as much as social commentary and adjustments. Some of us see Star Trek as a story not a lesson.
 
It just came to me but we have never fully addressed the headline, completely. If the show is going to adhere to canon what will be sparking, debate? I'm going to put on my tin foil hat for a moment because I just came up with a conspiracy. Kurtzman used the headline to create the possibility of a show that can fit into whatever canon we want with those words? Debate means that their will be no definite answers given but then he says it will adhere to canon to keep us guessing.

It's all a elaborate ruse to get fans to watch in a "Where's Waldo" fashion looking for anything that can prove their personal opinions. It might be a mental test to see how far you can manipulate old school trekkers before they descend into madness. When this is done and they no longer have to worry about canon with all the old defenders locked up in mental homes they will unlease the very first vampire based Trek show that will be aimed at teenager girls who were into the "Twillight" movies. You will have vamp Kirk and werewolf Picard who fight over the love of their lives in teenage Seven of Nine?

Jason
 
That's why we have these debates because the audience reflects existing fans who have filled 23 of these pages with expectations about what Discovery can deliver as entertainment as much as social commentary and adjustments. Some of us see Star Trek as a story not a lesson.

The segment of the audience that posts online is a very small and unrepresentative sample of the whole. The whole point is, there are fans of many stripes. People who assume their own branch of fandom is the only one that counts are misunderstanding the audience. Again, the reason there's such a push for diversification these days is because it works. The diverse audience is already there and hungry for content; it's simply a matter of recognizing that reality and taking advantage of it. It's not about teaching anyone a lesson, it's about having the basic business sense to market your product to a wider audience that's eager to be sold to.


It just came to me but we have never fully addressed the headline, completely. If the show is going to adhere to canon what will be sparking, debate?

You seriously need to ask that? Every prior show has been part of the same canon, but fans have been debating all of it constantly for half a century. There was plenty of debate even when there was just TOS. Fans debate the things they're fans of. That's a universal constant.

Besides, it's not like continuity is the only thing to debate about. There will probably be debate over the ethical questions and philosophical issues the show raises. In the article, Kurtzman was referring specifically to Burnham's story and character arc. I'd assume he means it's going to go in directions that are unusual for Star Trek. We already know there are unusual things about her, like being a lead character who's a first officer, and a human who was educated on Vulcan.


Kurtzman used the headline to create the possibility of a show that can fit into whatever canon we want with those words? Debate means that their will be no definite answers given but then he says it will adhere to canon to keep us guessing.

It's all a elaborate ruse to get fans to watch in a "Where's Waldo" fashion looking for anything that can prove their personal opinions. It might be a mental test to see how far you can manipulate old school trekkers before they descend into madness. When this is done and they no longer have to worry about canon with all the old defenders locked up in mental homes they will unlease the very first vampire based Trek show that will be aimed at teenager girls who were into the "Twillight" movies. You will have vamp Kirk and werewolf Picard who fight over the love of their lives in teenage Seven of Nine?

I'm going to assume you're joking at this point.
 
You seriously need to ask that? Every prior show has been part of the same canon, but fans have been debating all of it constantly for half a century. There was plenty of debate even when there was just TOS. Fans debate the things they're fans of. That's a universal constant.

Met a fan in the early 80s..he was quite a bit older than me..(must have been about 20 when TOS aired on NBC, I was 5 at the same time) and he told me that the "Only true Star Trek was the FIRST season prior to Gene Coon coming on-board!"
Holy crap! I'm sure he probably blew an O-ring when TNG came out I do remember the debates at cons/clubs regarding the TOS films..how they were/weren't true to the spirit of Star Trek...

I always remember, it's a franchise that's entire purpose is to entertain the public and make money for the companies involved..
it may be fun to debate canon, but in the end, it's rather pointless, as the show's production team will do what ever is required to set butts in front of their screens and pay money for the privilege .
 
The segment of the audience that posts online is a very small and unrepresentative sample of the whole. The whole point is, there are fans of many stripes. People who assume their own branch of fandom is the only one that counts are misunderstanding the audience. Again, the reason there's such a push for diversification these days is because it works. The diverse audience is already there and hungry for content; it's simply a matter of recognizing that reality and taking advantage of it. It's not about teaching anyone a lesson, it's about having the basic business sense to market your product to a wider audience that's eager to be sold

I really don't know what proportion of fans are part of an online community, or for that matter what proportion of the viewing audience are existing Star Trek fans, and or viewers of past Trek. Obviously it's unknown at this stage what the audience for Star Trek Discovery will consist of, but I have read references like yours before. Is there some kind of statistical source for the breakdown of viewership? Who actually makes up the audience, say using a past Trek (TV) model. If that is no longer relevant given paid TV where are we getting this information from regards what makes up the audience, e.g fans and new viewers?? Regards to representation though, how do you know that we don't represent (no matter what our numbers) a sample of the audience? We may be more invested but surely we are representative of the audience at least in part. I don't see Discovery being marketed strictly to the new viewer, it is expecting the backstory or the 'to be' story to be referenced. Kirk, Spock, and the Enterprise. You don't do that unless you are trying to appeal to an audience even with a passing idea of Star Trek.

I don't know the strategies involved. You call it basic business sense but you're assuming as well. For all you know the market research said appeal in part to the existing fan base. Throw in diversity because that's what Star Trek does, and make it look 'Kelvin' because people are paying for cinematic quality.
 
The segment of the audience that posts online is a very small and unrepresentative sample of the whole. The whole point is, there are fans of many stripes. People who assume their own branch of fandom is the only one that counts are misunderstanding the audience. Again, the reason there's such a push for diversification these days is because it works. The diverse audience is already there and hungry for content; it's simply a matter of recognizing that reality and taking advantage of it. It's not about teaching anyone a lesson, it's about having the basic business sense to market your product to a wider audience that's eager to be sold to.




You seriously need to ask that? Every prior show has been part of the same canon, but fans have been debating all of it constantly for half a century. There was plenty of debate even when there was just TOS. Fans debate the things they're fans of. That's a universal constant.

Besides, it's not like continuity is the only thing to debate about. There will probably be debate over the ethical questions and philosophical issues the show raises. In the article, Kurtzman was referring specifically to Burnham's story and character arc. I'd assume he means it's going to go in directions that are unusual for Star Trek. We already know there are unusual things about her, like being a lead character who's a first officer, and a human who was educated on Vulcan.




I'm going to assume you're joking at this point.

Yep I was joking. It's funny though that the headline on face value could be seen as making the point that the debate might come from how it adhere's to canon. I just like trying to figure out why people sometimes they use the words they use and what it is they are trying to convey.

Even if I didn't read the article the headline says to me that this story is about winning over older fans by talking about things we like about old Trek. Compare that 2 the teaser which seemed aimed at Kelvin Universe fans and new fans. It will be interesting to see how they sale the show up until the first episode is released.

Will they push hard for nostigia to get people to watch or go for new fans. I wonder if they might fear that older fans might not give the show a chance were in the past I think it was always a given that at least the Trekkers will show up no matter what. I wonder if newer fans might be more of a lock than old school ones at this rate because of the success of the Kelvin Universe movies and the high production values of the new show. Like it has been said they won't care a lick about things like canon and continuity so you don't have to win them over on that issue.

Jason
 
I don't know the strategies involved. You call it basic business sense but you're assuming as well.

No, I'm looking at what's actually happening. It's not hypothetical that Wonder Woman and DC Superhero Girls are hugely successful, or that Ms. Marvel/Kamala Khan is one of the hottest characters in superhero comics. It's not hypothetical that Luke Cage was the most successful Marvel Netflix series, with both audiences and critics. These things have already occurred. You're talking about an established reality as if it were some untested speculation, and that's just a failure of observation.
 
Really, though, if you want a gender-swapped counterpart for a Bond girl name, i.e. something that women would find suggestive of sexually appealing qualities in men, it'd probably be something more like "Barry Goodlistener" or "Len Dahandwiththedishes."

Because women aren't into sex? Female desire is a thing, too. And we're into looks, too.
I get that your point is pretty benevolent ("women aren't as shallow or focused on looks") but it still feels like benevolent sexism to me.
The way media treats female desire is usually pretty sad and I wouldn't mind "Jane Bond" to be... more fun than that. If they managed to make her sexually active, knowing what she wants and going for it without falling for the usual "film camera as male gaze" issue... that'd be cool.

As a woman I'd rather see a female Bond embrace her sexuality like that because it fits the role and gets us away from the usual depictions of female desire that tend to be waaay to non-sexual and stereotypical ("women just want a good listener!").
 
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Because women aren't into sex? Female desire is a thing, too. And we're into looks, too.
I get that your point is pretty benevolent ("women aren't as shallow or focused on looks") but it still feels like benevolent sexism to me.
The way media treats female desire is usually pretty sad and I wouldn't mind "Jane Bond" to be... more fun than that. If they managed to make her sexually active, knowing what she wants and going for it without falling for the usual "film camera as male gaze" issue... that'd be cool.

As a woman I'd rather see a female Bond embrace her sexuality like that because it fits the role and gets us away from the usual depictions of female desire that tend to be waaay to non-sexual and stereotypical ("women just want a good listener!").
Personal experience can vary, so I could see Jane Bond being interesting, but it would still feel outside the norm of my experience. Not a bad thing, but just an observation of relationships and expressions of desire that I have seen.
 
Because women aren't into sex? Female desire is a thing, too. And we're into looks, too.

Of course I know that, but the other posters had that side more than covered. I was just trying to suggest -- humorously, of course -- that there was another side to consider, that one shouldn't just assume that women's priorities in sex partners are as shallow and one-dimensional as men's tend to be (at least the kind of men that Bond movies tend to cater to). And it's nothing I haven't heard women joke about themselves.
 
Really, though, if you want a gender-swapped counterpart for a Bond girl name, i.e. something that women would find suggestive of sexually appealing qualities in men, it'd probably be something more like "Barry Goodlistener" or "Len Dahandwiththedishes."

You must be male :lol:
 
I always wanted a '71 Mustang. If someone gave me a '71 Cougar, I'd be happy. But, even though the Cougar and the Mustang share many of the same parts, they aren't the same car and they never would or could be.

Discovery will, I'm sure, share many things from the "Prime" timeline, but it will be its own distinct thing in my mind.
 
I always wanted a '71 Mustang. If someone gave me a '71 Cougar, I'd be happy. But, even though the Cougar and the Mustang share many of the same parts, they aren't the same car and they never would or could be.

Discovery will, I'm sure, share many things from the "Prime" timeline, but it will be its own distinct thing in my mind.

Quit making sense, it ruins the petty arguments. :lol:
 
No, I'm looking at what's actually happening. It's not hypothetical that Wonder Woman and DC Superhero Girls are hugely successful, or that Ms. Marvel/Kamala Khan is one of the hottest characters in superhero comics. It's not hypothetical that Luke Cage was the most successful Marvel Netflix series, with both audiences and critics. These things have already occurred. You're talking about ..
Actually I was talking about... Discovery. You've gone and provided a different example and answer one that conveniently fits something else. That's kind of funny.
 
Actually I was talking about... Discovery. You've gone and provided a different example and answer one that conveniently fits something else. That's kind of funny.

I'm talking about the audience and how the industry's decisions are shaped in response to what the audience has already shown itself to want. You're talking about shows as if they exist independently of their audience, which they don't. Everything that's happening in the larger genre world these days proves that there is a large female and nonwhite audience that eagerly responds when offered entertainment that represents and includes them. That is why so many shows and movies these days are offering more female and nonwhite heroes, why we're now on the cusp of a world where Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who all simultaneously have female leads. Discovery does not exist in a cultural vacuum. The people who make it and all these other shows are diversifying their leads because they recognize that it works, that the audience for such things is there. It's not about making a political statement, it's just about recognizing what the modern audience is actually like and understanding that the industry needs to catch up with that reality in order to remain profitable.
 
I'm talking about the audience and how the industry's decisions are shaped in response to what the audience has already shown itself to want. You're talking about shows as if they exist independently of their audience, which they don't. Everything that's happening in the larger genre world these days proves that there is a large female and nonwhite audience that eagerly responds when offered entertainment that represents and includes them. That is why so many shows and movies these days are offering more female and nonwhite heroes, why we're now on the cusp of a world where Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who all simultaneously have female leads. Discovery does not exist in a cultural vacuum. The people who make it and all these other shows are diversifying their leads because they recognize that it works, that the audience for such things is there. It's not about making a political statement, it's just about recognizing what the modern audience is actually like and understanding that the industry needs to catch up with that reality in order to remain profitable.
How do any of us really know what the composition of the Discovery audience is going to be? Drawing parallels from similar shows and their audience is an indicator but not the only one, and it would be ignorant to dismiss the unique character and appeal that only Star Trek can provide that no comparison will. I do understand that shows are not independent of their audience, in fact I rather went on about wanting to know the statistics, market research, and asked if you could supply those that connect Discovery with this (unknown at this stage) audience that is being catered for. Some of it has to be projections and some of it as you suggest (but almost exclusively) genre based. My personal conclusion is that the existing fan base or even those with a passing knowledge are being sort and with that comes expectations.

I'm female. I don't necessarily represent one that needs to see only women as leads. (Us within that demographic model are not a one-size fits all mentality either). I love Janeway and a new female Doctor is fine by me, but Discovery doesn't have to validate my profile. Emphasizing the diversity angle is probably preaching to the converted here. Some of us, and yes we might be the existing fan base - (an actual known quantity).. but some of us want to just get on with it and see if it is a good show. It's starting to feel like the difference between having good meal or having a dietitian give you your required nutritional supplements.
 
How do any of us really know what the composition of the Discovery audience is going to be?

Ah, I see the problem now. We're talking past each other about two different things. Let's review: I was talking about the opportunities the makers of a full Trek reboot would've had that the makers of the Kelvin Timeline didn't, the freedom to change anything about Trek continuity instead of trying to work around it. One such possibility I mentioned was the freedom to change characters' sex and race, though that was just one example of the larger point I was making. But some people started a digression arguing over whether such changes were legitimate -- as if it were somehow untried rather than something that's been a routine practice in film and TV since pretty much the start of the century. One of the arguments that tends to be made against such changes is that they're allegedly made with some sort of political motive, an attempt to change the audience's opinions about such inclusion. My response to that is that they don't need to change the audience's opinions -- a large segment of the audience already wants more characters that look like them and will respond positively to having more such characters, whether by altering existing characters to be more diverse or adding more characters who are diverse to begin with.

So you see, the conversation wasn't actually about Discovery at all. I was talking about the hypothetical of a full reboot of Star Trek, the possibility of something like a female Kirk or a black McCoy. I was speaking of the reasons in general why adding more diversity to entertainment properties is known to be a financially successful strategy, refuting the assumption that the only reason to do it is as some sort of artificial imposition of a political agenda. Now, yes, that broader point is applicable to Discovery, but it wasn't Discovery specifically that I was talking about.
 
Ah, I see the problem now. We're talking past each other about two different things. Let's review: I was talking about the opportunities the makers of a full Trek reboot would've had that the makers of the Kelvin Timeline didn't, the freedom to change anything about Trek continuity instead of trying to work around it. One such possibility I mentioned was the freedom to change characters' sex and race, though that was just one example of the larger point I was making. But some people started a digression arguing over whether such changes were legitimate -- as if it were somehow untried rather than something that's been a routine practice in film and TV since pretty much the start of the century. One of the arguments that tends to be made against such changes is that they're allegedly made with some sort of political motive, an attempt to change the audience's opinions about such inclusion. My response to that is that they don't need to change the audience's opinions -- a large segment of the audience already wants more characters that look like them and will respond positively to having more such characters, whether by altering existing characters to be more diverse or adding more characters who are diverse to begin with.

So you see, the conversation wasn't actually about Discovery at all. I was talking about the hypothetical of a full reboot of Star Trek, the possibility of something like a female Kirk or a black McCoy. I was speaking of the reasons in general why adding more diversity to entertainment properties is known to be a financially successful strategy, refuting the assumption that the only reason to do it is as some sort of artificial imposition of a political agenda. Now, yes, that broader point is applicable to Discovery, but it wasn't Discovery specifically that I was talking about.
You make good points. There has been this approach to the cinematic audience for a long time now, with varying success and failure. For every Wonder Woman there's a couple of Ghostbusters.
 
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